The Mick & Pat Show - Scaling Heights & Season Delights

Speaker 1: 0:48

Welcome, ken, to the Make-It-Past Show, officially 2024. That is Just barely yeah. It's kind of weird because seasonally our seasons are like beginning in November.

Speaker 2: 1:04

For the show.

Speaker 1: 1:05

For the show yeah, that's when, like our season two actually started, right when we got to a year doing episodes, but kind of close to like a new year, like I feel like we really started rolling episodes out right around the new year. Like our Christmas episode last year was one of our like first 10 episodes, so kind of a new season here, yeah. But anyways, joining us tonight is a new friend of ours, billy. Go for it. Introduce yourself, man.

Speaker 3: 1:37

I don't know, I'm Billy. There we go.

Speaker 2: 1:42

Yeah, we've known each other for a little bit now.

Speaker 3: 1:45

Yeah.

Speaker 2: 1:46

Seven. Is it seven years? Yeah, I mean pushing somewhere in there? No, it's 2017. Yeah, it's weird because I felt like 2016 just happened in my like time clock man, the good old times. That's when I got married 2016, and since then it's just been 2016 was a baller year.

Speaker 1: 2:06

It's just been going fast. I really enjoyed 2016. Billy, I have not known you as long as a person, right, I've known your face, for I don't know when you start going to our church 2017. Oh, okay, yeah, so I've known your face since then, because I remember you doing coffee. I feel like you do coffee.

Speaker 3: 2:27

Like I've done all the things, yeah, yeah, except for security which is it's something I'm aspiring to. I need to get my concealed carry.

Speaker 2: 2:36

Now did. You can use this karate chop.

Speaker 1: 2:39

You don't need a concealed carry to be my body shield. I think we got guys on the team who don't even like they don't even like guns. But I just know, like, hey, like I'm just going to put my hand behind your shoulder while we lead in here. For real, I'm just teasing. But yeah, no, I've recognized you for a long time. I didn't know you and your wife were each other's spouses. I knew you were married because I had seen a ring on your finger and I knew she was married because I'd seen a ring on her finger and I had never known it. You guys were married to each other. But anyways, I just know, recognize you for a while and I'll say this I was very delighted to make your acquaintance. Yes, I had a baby shower recently, you as well. I found out that we had a lot in common and even today, when Pat texted me and he was like, hey, this guy, billy's going to come over and take a look at the studio he's interested in like learning how to do his own podcast, maybe, which you know, let you talk about that. You know, self promo, whatever. But I was like who? And then he sent me a picture of you. I was like, oh yeah, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 3: 3:47

No, no, no.

Speaker 1: 3:48

Okay, that Billy. Yeah, and I was stoked. I was really excited that you're going to be here. So welcome to the show. Tell us a little bit about yourself, just so people kind of know who you are. You know a little bit. You know what you like to do.

Speaker 3: 4:00

Yeah.

Speaker 1: 4:02

Maybe how again you know why the heck you want to sit with us.

Speaker 3: 4:07

I was actually born in Ohio but, I am a Colorado kid and I think the reason why I'm still here is because of the mountains. For sure, I work and kind of exist in the climbing world and I I don't know, I guess I consider that a bit of a ministry for myself. Is this like a faith based podcast? Like, are we allowed to talk about that? Yeah, I mean I'm a little offended.

Speaker 1: 4:41

You said you like what you hear of our podcast, but I would hope you know we love Jesus.

Speaker 2: 4:46

I'm just rethin hard, strong enough on the gospel.

Speaker 1: 4:47

Reality check.

Speaker 2: 4:48

Thank you.

Speaker 1: 4:53

We need to promote Jesus more. We use the bottom line. We want to be genuine. So often we say, you know, especially when we were talking about stuff like recently on our homelessness episode we released, the bottom line was we have a heart for like. We want to have the same heart Jesus has for homeless people. But we also have a lot of beef with the policies and things being implemented that we don't think are helping. That you know right and it's right. So a lot of all of our things that we kind of talk on the show about like actual politics, or beef that we have with something or something we're not proud of going on, a society is usually grounded in because we believe there's something better, right, and that's Jesus, and we've said that.

Speaker 2: 5:41

So we feel free to talk about faith as much as you want. Yeah, like the music in the back of like Chick-fil-A.

Speaker 1: 5:46

Yeah, you're like now that maybe is like like that's water down, like yeah, it's like instrumental, instrumental, that's like I came here to get chicken, but I think that's about Jesus.

Speaker 3: 5:58

But like is, this on failing love yeah, exactly, exactly.

Speaker 2: 6:02

So that's yeah, but also, it's no holds bar. You can also say the F word.

Speaker 3: 6:07

Hell yeah, I mean, that's the thing like.

Speaker 2: 6:09

I didn't want discretion.

Speaker 1: 6:12

The last thing I wanted to come out of this is that any of our family or friends be like Wow, you have quite the sailors mouth when you're not on the mic. Is that because you don't want people to think?

Speaker 3: 6:21

you're not Christian, for sure.

Speaker 1: 6:23

You know what I mean, and not that I have a lot of friends or family who would like be spiteful or use it, but I just I would rather err on the side of people, be like oh no, that's pretty much Mick, like he's himself on the podcast and he's a genuine dude.

Speaker 3: 6:37

I'll say that when I'm in this environment, that's not a thing Like I can't like. It's not that I can't, it's just that it's not really part of the topic. You know, like if I were to insert my faith into you know some rock climbing thing. It would just kind of feel weird or maybe even disingenuous, but forced and yeah.

Speaker 2: 7:02

Yeah.

Speaker 1: 7:03

And I think we do how we did. We didn't embark on this to be a faith based podcast, right, because we didn't want to feel like we had to really shoehorn it to make it make sense. Yeah, I think we really pretty much bring it up whenever it makes sense to like address it as our own beliefs, but I don't think we really use this podcast as like a ministry, right. You know what I mean. It's more of a hang out Everyone's welcome.

Speaker 3: 7:31

That's kind of the promo.

Speaker 1: 7:32

Right, it's like Ken, everyone is Ken. Everyone's welcome to sit around, regardless of your faith. We have our beliefs, but that doesn't mean we look down on you if you don't share them.

Speaker 3: 7:42

Yeah, so that's a huge part of me. I mean, I have my wife and my daughter and I have climbing, and that's kind of like me in a nutshell. But I've struggled a lot with like the vanity of it. You know, rock climbing is very much about me and, you know, I think about these missionaries or like doctors without borders and like these people who are like doing these this like lit work for Christ, you know, and it's like, well, I'm just sitting in the woods like smoking weed, like what am I doing for Christ? And it's like, oh, maybe you could not smoke so much weed and maybe you should actually do something with this. And I'm at the age now where I've been in it for so long that that can hit home for some, some younger people. So, yeah, I think if I were to describe myself it would be you know, that would be like sort of my mission. It's awesome dude.

Speaker 2: 8:55

Yeah, it's, people think of ministry always. People get wrapped up in ministry. It was haptic to be a your occupation. You know a pastor, you know, or you know missionary, those sorts of things. But like, your business can be your ministry field in major ways, just like how, like and like Christ can use your business in his ministry field. Interesting thing like people might step over this one kind of quickly, but one of the first encounters Jesus had with Peter he looks at Peter and says, hey, can I step in your boat to give this message to the people? And Peter says yes, and that's like we just read that, like, oh, like, jesus used to get his disciples boat. That boat was his livelihood, that boat was where he made all his money and that boat was then used by Christ to further his kingdom through the, through the willingness of a disciple to say, yeah, go ahead and step in here, I'm going to let you step into my thing. And so that's. I mean that's the. That's when he's on the sea of Galilee preaching the sermons that have been taught for the last 2000 years. And like the impact of what letting Christ step into your business can do is we don't even know what it could be.

Speaker 1: 10:21

Yeah, I think I'll. You know, I would say something that I mean we were just talking about it. I try to be very honest. You know, here I would say something that, like I hope doesn't hurt anyone's feelings who's listening of, like our friends and stuff, people I've discipled, mentored, but I would say like the most life change I've consistently seen in a discipleship or any kind of relationship like that is the people that I was able to sit down and work in a workplace setting and share the gospel with and answer their questions with and I'm talking like radical, like you know people. I remember there was several dudes who I never went to them saying like hey man, would you want to read the Bible? Today, I saying that's the wrong thing to do. But when I was working in the cannabis, I was working in the security industry, but I was mainly working on security for cannabis because it was the Wild West in Colorado during those days and there was three guys I can recall who had gone to church in their background growing up or just like weren't believers at all but thought it was. They like really seemed to respect that. Like I started off my morning just like crack it open the word drinking my coffee, and then, as soon as the store opened up, close it through my backpack and it was business. And they're like that's really cool that you have that man. You know I used to do that. Or I used to go to church where and like I was like oh cool, I kept on talking with them, got to know them. Those three guys quit working cannabis because they felt they ended up like becoming believers whether you want to say born again or not and they just decided this is an industry that is just full sin and like I don't think I can walk with God and be selling weed because it's just it was one. It's a very corporate, competitive industry like any sales thing to. It's pretty seedy with a lot of the illicit stuff that goes on behind the scenes and I never felt like convicted doing the security part. But I never had to touch the product.

Speaker 3: 12:35

I never had to sell it, I just had to make sure everybody was safe

Speaker 1: 12:38

and that the money was not being stolen. And those guys, just like I remember all three of them were like I'm good I got to get out of here. This is not going to help me, this is not conducive to my, to being a follower of Christ. I was like I don't think I was the one I never told him. I was like you should quit this job. Most of them, like they said that, like well, okay, hold on, man, like just think it through. This is your job, it pays your bills, right. But all of them left, and I was, and I just always thought that was like that's some damn radical life change. And also it was cool because I was like go off into the sunset, like go and make more believers, because, like, after that, I never saw those guys again. You know they because they switched careers and only sell them at work. But I do think like there's something to be said about, like you know, just meeting people where you are at right and letting the spirit do its thing, letting the Holy Spirit move. All I said too, though I think there is I don't know what to say, how to say it there's like a brand of Christian, and I'm trying to say this in not a way that sounds like a joke, where I make it fun if you get all billy, but like I just know about four other dudes who are in the climbing culture would love for it to be their like primary occupation to do something climbing related and they don't have any other friends in that sphere that are believers. Everyone else is a non-believer or, on the fence, agnostic, and they love it because their climbing buddies will ask them questions and be curious and genuine in that curiosity and they get to spend that time with dudes who you know, they love them, they're best friends and they want those guys to come to know Jesus. But like they do see it as like this is my ministry, like climbing these rocks with these dudes and being genuine with them, and it's like I've seen it enough now that I'm like I genuinely believe that is a brand of Christian in our town. Like all of them live here and none of them overlap in climbing groups. Like there was enough people rock climbing out here that like none of you guys have overlapped and met, and so it's like I'm like, oh, dude, I have probably something God's doing right.

Speaker 3: 14:52

Man. I've been climbing for I don't know close to 20 years and I've had like three climbing partners that are kind of at my conviction level with following Christ and it's awesome when it happens. But yeah, it's interesting because it's an amazing pursuit and what it requires of an individual to push that limit, I think it's really, really inspiring and it's easy to translate, I think back to Christ.

Speaker 1: 15:29

I think so too. Like I never did insane rock climbing, I would say Like I felt like I had peaked for sure at some points. I was a part of like a. We had a really sick rock climbing wall in my high school. It like went onto the ceiling. It was upset. I think at the peak of it, before it went onto the ceiling, was something like 35 feet, so it was pretty tall for like an indoor climbing wall for a high school. And then we went and did like rock climbing outside of that. And then I did some more when we moved up here by freshman year and I really enjoyed it. I did feel like there was a lot of I don't know, felt like it was very easy to have a spiritual high wall, rock climbing and like have a spiritual moment summiting something. So I could see how I never used it for ministry, but I could see how it could very easily lend itself to that.

Speaker 3: 16:19

You know when Ecclesiastes is talking about like enjoying your toil. That's like what life is. Is figuring that out? That is rock climbing.

Speaker 2: 16:29

Yeah, I believe that Enjoying your toil is true.

Speaker 1: 16:33

Pat, were you ever a big climber or did you ever get into it? Have a phase.

Speaker 2: 16:37

Yeah, I was. There was a time in my life where I pretty much climbed almost every day for two years, two or three years straight. So I did climb quite a bit, my senior year of high school and then freshman sophomore year, college, and so I had an uncle who was a big time climber and he kind of kind of helped me get into it. But then also I just I just always climb it on stuff too as a kid and I'd always get stuck on top of trees. It was like it's like a five to seven year old and I the I'd have to yell till a neighbor went and got my dad and he'd help me climb down, because down climbing not easy, up climbing Easy, easy in comparison right. So, but so I always enjoyed it. And then, yeah, I did. You know, through high school I climbed. And then, but my senior year, me and my best friend we took, we took our fourth period together and as a block schedule. So we did AP lit one day. The next day we did our partial at the same time and his dad was a pretty big climber and he'd built a 40 foot wall in their backyard. Whoa, it was super, super, super, super fun.

Speaker 1: 17:46

Like a backyard project. That's awesome.

Speaker 2: 17:49

His dad was like a. We could do a whole podcast under his dad. He's like a, like a crazy inventor guy. Like just Tesla coils and just barrels full of like gunpowder just for experiments and dirt bikes and just, but like he was an engineer rock climber British dude worked on motorcycles just super cool, all around guy.

Speaker 3: 18:08

So you're like lead climbing in this guy's backyard.

Speaker 2: 18:10

Yeah, so what we would do is he had they had, you know, they had the. It was built with telephone poles and then it had, um, uh, one side was like super easy, and it was pitched, positive pitch, so you could, just it was easy. But then, but then on the other side, we could, we would set a route and then we would practice leading it, and every time we'd lead it, we would lead it and clean it together, because we were practicing to climb outside and every time we climbed it we'd pull a hold, and so we just keep pulling a hold until like, and we had a at the very top, we had a bomber, just like, uh, you'd know exactly the name, I don't know it, just it was a, it was a P, like a pyramid triangle that stuck off.

Speaker 3: 18:53

Yeah.

Speaker 2: 18:54

So it was just a but a bomber hold. And so it got to the point where the whole wall was nubs and then just the last one and the dino got longer and longer at the top. We went to high school and we're idiots so we kept making the dot. The last move, a dino. That was longer and longer and you just have to jump the nubs and slap the bomber hold and pull up and so. But we got a lot of good practice in, like we would also always um and we'd be, we would tie in, like we'd do all of our tying behind our back and have our guy check it, and like, cause we were, cause it was an easy platform to stand on. But we really wanted to get good at rope management and confidence in our gear and being able to Tread climbing was the goal for this. And so we wanted to just be good and safe, and and his dad wouldn't take us outside until you could tie a clove hitch behind your back, clip it and fall forward and not fall.

Speaker 3: 19:45

That's awesome.

Speaker 2: 19:46

So like it was cool to have guys who were, you know, experienced and especially like it's there's his son and sense friends who want us to be safe. But um, so that was like high school climbing and we'd get outside and then, in college, uh, got with a buddy who, um, ended up being my best friend through college, my best man and he, um, uh, we met at the, at the rock wall, at the rec at CSU, and that was the first time we met. He was hanging from the top and I was like I got introduced uh, um, by a mutual friend first week of freshman year and we hit it off every day. We'd climb for hours and then hit brain late night for sandwiches. And it was the dream, you know, um, and then I got into a, a sketchy tread situation and I haven't climbed outside since because the um, I think it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, I'll tell it. We're here now. I'll just tell the story. But so we, um, we went up up the canyon and I just gotten some new cams and it's like, all right, let's go find, um, a new Tread route to go, go climb on. And we had an old guidebook. We look it up and we find the spot. We think it is. In most of the spots up here are sports set. So you know, all the it's all bolted. So you, just, you set your protection as you go into bolts. We wanted to just set our own protection. And so, as I was, we're climbing this thing and I, you, go up about 75 feet and then there's a uh, oh, like a seven foot ledge, and then you keep going up and it's a single pitch climb. So you go on that ledge and then you go up. And as you go, we're going up, um, there's two arretts. And I got off course and I went in the middle of the two arretts, or two pieces of rock that are sticking off the wall and I went in the middle of them and then, um, as I'm going, the rock was trash. Every, every hold was blowing off rock, like you'd grab it and it would just be raining rock down.

Speaker 3: 21:47

Are you like pretty run out at this point.

Speaker 2: 21:50

I'm beginning to get run out, so I've, I've, I set pro in rock and I could jiggle the rock.

Speaker 3: 21:56

Dude, that ain't it, but I was but go home.

Speaker 2: 21:59

Exactly, but I, but I was You're committed at this point. I was committed because of that seven foot ledge. Yeah, you don't want to deck on it I was going to deck on the ledge, so only way out was up, and so I um, I started to keep going. I, I have these, the tiny, tiny cams. It's a so a cam for those listening is basically just a little piece of metal that squishes down. You stick it in a crack, it spreads itself out and doesn't fall out. Lots of your favorite cams are like as big around as like a Coke can circumference wise. You stick it in there and it expands out and it's got a real good hold. I'm using these little things that are big around as a pin, and you couldn't put a nut anywhere in in, in, in, and I had. As I'm going, I looked down and my last two cams had fallen out, to my last piece of pro. So now I'm run out like a run out 35 feet and. I'm definitely going to deck on the ledge, or or my next, my next piece of pros go. Even if I miss the ledge, I'm going all the way down. So I also, at this point, have gotten into a chimney on these two arets. So chimney climbing is you've got your hand, you know you've. You're just like you'd climb a chimney. You put your feet and hands out to the side and you're pushing pressure out both ways to your left and right as you move up. And then I got to the point where I was chimneyed with my two hands at my back and my, my feet in front of you and my right foot behind me, so three points of contact on one side of the chimney. Other side of the chimney was just a toe on a nub and so you could look down between your legs. There's no wall because you couldn't really reach out and touch the wall because you're so far out away from her. So you're just you look behind you, full exposure down between your legs. I could see my climbing partner from looking down between my legs back at him and he's called other the other two people over at this point. And these two well, these two like I looked at like two people down there in their faces or like ghost white, and I'm like damn. And and he's and he's like clipped himself off in case he has to to take a whipper, to take my slack. But then he at this point it's too bad, he has to unclip himself so that he can. If I fall, the only hope is for him to run backwards as fast as possible to take out as much slack as the rope is possible before I hit. So now he's, he's ready. I look at him and at this point my left leg that's on my left leg is, if it goes, I'm going down. It's only holding pressure, start sewing machine legging. I'm burnt out and I was at the top of my like physical strength but I was just bonking and I don't usually get scared climbing because I usually climb safe and I don't do this to myself. But he's getting ready to run and I look down at him. I'm like, are you ready to run? Like he's like yep, okay. And I'm like I was like Lord, I have messed up so bad. I started praying. I was like God, I got myself into the worst situation just now. Like I, I need your help. The only hope is for your help and I get done praying. I look up and up into the left is you can't see a hold, but you can see chalk. So I couldn't see a hold, but I could see chalk. And so climbers when they're climbing they use chalk. So it's white chalk on this granite. I could. I know someone's climbed right there before and so I look down at my buddy and say, all right, I think I see my next hold. I got a dino up to this thing and and you got to get ready to run. So I, my hands behind my back, I push off the wall, kick with my left foot as hard as I can up, and in my mind the dino it's like. It's like Michael Jordan and space jam is arms are right. I don't even know if my I do know my toe did leave Like I did leave all. I left all contact. Yeah, I do know that. But it might have been a centimeter, I don't care, doesn't matter, yeah.

Speaker 3: 26:06

I left contact.

Speaker 1: 26:07

Yeah.

Speaker 2: 26:08

My tight keister you know, and but I jump and I just slap at this chalk, Totally blind, blind, blind, slap bomber. Hold, pull myself up, pull myself up, pull myself up two chains, let's go right there. Two chains right there. I grabbed those. So at the top of a route is where the chains are when it's over. So I found the top, so I grabbed those chains and I pulled myself up and I clipped in like 28 different things tied off. I was like I'm not falling. So I got all clipped off and I just sat there for like a good 15 minutes just breathing, calming down, and a cigarette, yeah, and then got my, got my crap together, got the rope set and then we're in college. We're not going to leave the cams behind, right? So? But also, at this point it's safe for my buddy to come clean the route. So he comes up behind me and he's like it takes him a long time to like clean the route and he's like you freaking climbed this, like because he's also it. It wasn't so hard as the fact that the rocks are blowing off, but anyways.

Speaker 3: 27:09

So that's the last time you climbed.

Speaker 2: 27:12

That's the last time I climbed outside, so faith in Christ and rock climbing can be very my heart, my heart's up right now. I'm going to want to do.

Speaker 1: 27:20

My palms are sweaty.

Speaker 2: 27:21

I really, I really live every time I tell a story, but anyways, I got the last time I climbed outside because I just one, we got busy with life and two, like I was, my prefrontal core depth developed a little more and I was like I just kind of diverged from the path. That's cool. That's kind of how it was with snowboarding too. I feel like I started after your wreck.

Speaker 1: 27:45

Yeah, I was just like man. Is it worth it? I don't know if it is for me. For some people it is. Yeah, so it is for me.

Speaker 2: 27:52

So I just um, yeah, that's, that's it, and I love climbing. I was and I was never elite like competition level or anything like that, but if I was in a gym I was like you're doing great Upper crust of like climbers and stuff which was fun. It was cool at that point in time to be I was strong as heck and I had monkey arms and it's great.

Speaker 1: 28:11

I just think you have the build of a climber too, though I could see you for the longest time before we knew each other. I thought your blue collar job was linemen.

Speaker 3: 28:22

I thought you were a lineman, bro, just because of your build.

Speaker 2: 28:24

I was like you look like you're built like a line, and at that point too, I was also like 50 pounds lighter, but my arms were bigger. So it was like you know I did. I had a good climber build back in the day. But now I'm like now I've got a bunch of climbing gear that's sitting on. I want to get rid of it before my kids find it. Not that I'm not going to let them climb, but that's how I got into it. I found my dad's climbing gear and I started climbing.

Speaker 3: 28:49

Yeah, yeah. When I was in high school, I inherited somebody's whole rig, you know, and it was the same situation where he's like I don't want my kids to find this and yeah, so here you go. Oh my God, I climbed on that rope and on that gear for too long.

Speaker 1: 29:06

Way too long.

Speaker 3: 29:07

Yeah.

Speaker 1: 29:09

I should come clean Like, don't be wrong, I thought I was a pretty good climber. I know, it was the top of like our like. In my school I never owned any gear. I never climbed anything higher than maybe, if you count, if you count our gymnasium ceiling and if you took that inverted ceiling, climb and straight out probably probably 45 feet into the air Right. So like look guys. I don't want to see anything like I got anything like I loved it, but I also never loved it enough that I was like I'm going to go buy a crap lot of gear and like set out. I also just never really, I guess, had the desire to like climb super tall stuff. I think that's because I don't know that I'm afraid of heights. Oh yeah, I mean I enjoyed climbing a lot. I thought I got the high, especially with friends and doing routes and stuff and feeling like accomplished and seeing improvement over time. You know, route that was impossible became doable. I also, though, got sewing machine arms and legs all the time, and I remember my like coach and our climbing course told me she was like I think you're afraid of heights. I was like I don't think so. I've never been afraid of heights, and I got my mom, who's afraid of heights, if she's like no, I think you're scared of heights Like your. Your whole physical reaction is that of like you, you look like a ghost when you're up at the top of the route. I'm like I think that's just because I was holding my breath. I feel really good, I don't feel scared.

Speaker 2: 30:37

She's like I don't know Like that's adrenaline, because your body thought you were dying.

Speaker 1: 30:40

Yeah, exactly, and I was like I was like maybe, maybe that's why I never like made the leap into getting gear and doing like long. I did one weekend trip in college with a climbing group from our you know, it's like the climbing club yeah yeah, I can't on campus and I thought that was fun. But I also just realized at that point I was like I don't think I care about it as much as most people on this trip because I was borrowing gear or renting gear that whole trip and it was fun. But after that it was when I kind of fell out. I don't have a cool story like Pat Pat, that was vivid.

Speaker 3: 31:12

Yeah, that was a great story. My palms, I kid you not, I don't wipe my palms off three times on my pants.

Speaker 2: 31:16

Yeah, dude.

Speaker 1: 31:18

I was in it.

Speaker 2: 31:18

Yeah, and if you've climbed a lot, you know you've either been in those situations or seen her. You know how easy it is to just f up. Yeah, and.

Speaker 3: 31:26

I well, that's the nice thing about bolted routes. You're like, oh well, there's the bolt, I'm going to go towards that. But when you're trad climbing and route finding you can definitely get you know off course. I've gotten off course before too, not nearly as consequential as what you're talking about, but yeah, that's heady for sure.

Speaker 1: 31:49

You are on the subject. I mean, I don't think we had planned on this, but on the subject man, you've mentioned, Billy, that you have a. You're interested in doing a climbing podcast. I haven't listened to many Climbing podcasts. I think I've listened to podcasts that were more like sports related, where they had climbers come on to talk about stuff or stories. But I'm just wondering, like, especially for our audience, like what would what you know, what would you want your climbing podcast to be about? What's kind of like your idea for it?

Speaker 3: 32:18

The going idea right now is kind of like a roots revival kind of idea.

Speaker 1: 32:27

Roots, as in like the OJ Simpson, like historical documentary, where it goes like it falls Like are you talking?

Speaker 3: 32:34

about roots, like getting back to your roots, like a historic account of rock climbing. I don't know exactly the reference you're talking about.

Speaker 2: 32:39

It's not a bad title, though, because you were saying R O O T, but you could R O U T E.

Speaker 3: 32:45

S revival for the for the.

Speaker 2: 32:47

You know there's, there's a working title Roots are vital, I feel.

Speaker 1: 32:51

You Rout routes, you know, you told me you guys, neither of you know that like TV made for.

Speaker 2: 32:55

TV. I do know about roots. Okay, roots, it's you should watch it.

Speaker 1: 32:59

It was a pretty good, never mind. I thought, I thought you would know their reference.

Speaker 2: 33:03

It's a classic mini series about slavery and like people being brought over from Africa.

Speaker 1: 33:08

OJ Simpson was like his breakout role in it. Yeah, oh, it's called roots. This most quoted thing is because OJ looks at his uh, like the the house slave, says more grits in the house slave, so there's more and beats him and it was one of the most quoted things, I think, at least in my school, because we were all required to watch it in school.

Speaker 2: 33:30

It's one of those ones that when you watch it as a little kid or like at the time it came out, it's very intense and like, oh my God, and now it's the cringe parts of it. It's hard to not like, it's hard to be like oh, this is kind of crazy.

Speaker 1: 33:43

Yeah, Kind of like.

Speaker 2: 33:43

Oh, OJ kind of got a bad dude, but anyways, when it came out it was pretty, pretty big show I have roots. Yeah, your name is Toby.

Speaker 1: 33:54

Okay, so like. So you're talking a little bit about a like, the when you say the roots of climbing culture, like the historical, like history of climbing and like, talk about like, maybe like big climbing figures or like things that helped get climbing to be more of like out of a like. Because I got, I've always visioned climbing as like it's been around as long as mankind has right, like mankind has been like. I must go over there and I have to go.

Speaker 2: 34:24

I have to use my hands right.

Speaker 1: 34:25

Right, and I think at some point we got to a place where it wasn't required for survival, and then it became a recreational thing. And like to me, like I would be interested to hear about that how it went from you know, like this is what we do every day, because we have to get these baskets up there to like. It was a recreational thing that became a sport that grew kind of outside and like to kind of know how that progressed. Yeah Cause imagine, like in America, how long it took for climbing to become a recreation, like it was a recreational even losing Clark, great grand possible, like you're nuts.

Speaker 2: 35:03

But so I and I kind of know where you want to head with it. Cause like what would? What is cause? You're not clear on quite that far back?

Speaker 3: 35:10

No, but I do think that that's like a good point, because climbing is this like simulator for struggle. So, when Lewis and Clark were making their way and they carry their horses on their backs over the rockets.

Speaker 1: 35:26

Yeah.

Speaker 3: 35:27

I heard that they like saw the mountains and they were probably like I wonder what it's like up there. But I'm not going up there. You know it took it took it took life to get a little bit more chill, for us to be like we're going to go, you know, and that that was kind of the birth of alpinism. Is like the struggle, the ordinary struggle kind of decreases, life gets kind of easy. But humans we need that struggle, we need to like fight for something, and climbing is one of the ways that people fight for something. It's like this simulated sort of like survival tactic and I love that about it. But what it's turned into is is this sort of social hierarchical bad that that relates more to Pokemon go than like the ties that we have to some of the OG climbers that we have at our disposal who are still alive you know and I want to tell those stories of the you know for the kids, even just to be like hey, climbing isn't this game with all these rules where if you climb v 15, you mean something more to the people around you. That is not what climbing is. It's never what it's ever meant to be. I had this like existential crisis one time in the new River Gorge where we were climbing just random rock in the woods, you know, just kind of like struggling with my faith and pursuing climbing way more than Christ. But you know, christ has never left me. That's one of the main things about my life that is kind of indescribable to me. He's always been there, whether I liked it or not, and I'm sitting there in the woods being like what, what are we doing? Like this is meaningless, this is so stupid. Like what can I do something with my life that isn't just like sitting in the woods, like trying to climb this grade? And I just felt this you know pretty powerful message that if you believe what you proclaim to believe about me, which is this all knowing, all powerful God, that I knew that climbers would be, that people would be interested in this, that people would like look at the mountains and want to be on top of them, that people would look at these walls in West Virginia and wonder what it would be like to scale that wall. And it birthed this like pretty beautiful people, but we've kind of bastardized that in a way where we've we've turned it into this commodity and I want to, I want to be a force that fights that narrative for people, because climbing isn't about climbing, isn't here to do something for you, to get people to like you or to love you more. It's. It's here for a much deeper and much more meaningful reason and I think bringing in people that can tell their story before this was a thing I think could go a long way and you know, maybe it'll catch on, maybe it won't, but that's the hope and I mean I mean you know our rule give it three years.

Speaker 1: 38:57

So we got two more at least before we give up on this. But I think that's cool and I think that is definitely something like one. I mean I would listen to it and I'd probably listen to it just because of how close in proximity I think so many of my other friends have discussed climbing, especially the ones who are still very active, climbing every weekend, once a week, and I don't think there'd be any shortage on people you could find in our local community that could come on to then have that message that could go out to national stuff. So I think that's pretty cool and I do agree with what you said. Like even as a nonactive climber, I can really see it in like devil's tower. Dude, like devil's tower to me is just something that, like I remember seeing it as a kid when I first saw close encounters of this third kind. And like they're trying to figure out like what the vision is and what it, and like devil's tower. And I was like that's a real thing. And I remember my mom. I think she had said she had gone on a climbing trip there when she was younger or something like that. But anyways, I just remember seeing it. I was like it makes sense that people want to climb that. Like it looks like it's asking for us to get to the top and if I feel like I feel that way, just with like my limited, you know, toe in the water to the climbing culture, like I feel like you could definitely have a pretty sweet message there to share with others and a good audience. Dude, dude, power to you, man.

Speaker 3: 40:26

You should do it, thank you.

Speaker 1: 40:28

Everyone. I don't know when it's coming out, but listen to Billy's podcast Getting back to the roots of climbing.

Speaker 2: 40:34

Yeah.

Speaker 1: 40:37

We got. You know this is beautiful because show always kind of just plays itself out, but it is our holiday episode, holiday recap, that's true, and I do want to go through and open our gifts since now that we have them. Oh yeah, we came way more prepared this year and I got Pat his gift like well before Christmas this year, so we had Chris since July last year. Yeah, it's okay, though it's fine.

Speaker 2: 41:06

And I you know I don't take responsibility for it. The waiting makes the heart grow fond, or something like that, and the gift hurt.

Speaker 1: 41:13

The commissioned graphics that I did are for our ads and all that. Oh yeah, I had no control over when those were done.

Speaker 3: 41:20

So I was like.

Speaker 1: 41:21

I commissioned them back in November. They just took six months to get done.

Speaker 2: 41:24

And I liked what happened. Yeah, that's right, so should we grab our gifts from behind the curtain?

Speaker 1: 41:30

Yeah, and I think Billy's reaction here will be genuine. Like Billy will see our gifts as they unwrap them, like he'll let all the audience know if they suck or not.

Speaker 3: 41:38

I'm so honored to be a part of this All right all right, here we go. I hope that's an AR-15.

Speaker 1: 41:48

I had me like not that great of a gift for Pat, because he already has two, three. Undisclosed yeah, you can always give me one of yours. I'd be fine with that. Yeah, I have one right now. Oh, dude, dinosaurs or a wrapping paper? Yeah, beautiful.

Speaker 2: 42:05

Uh, macewindu wrapped this with with you in mind. Really, he make love dinosaurs. Mm do, which is why this was his gift last year.

Speaker 1: 42:14

Oh, I see, so my wife wrapped this one for you. All right, it's very well wrapped. Billy Jean wrapped it for you. We didn't have Duck wallpaper, so these are very similarly shaped boxes.

Speaker 2: 42:27

Yeah, this one, this one looks to me to be this box that I'm handing pat.

Speaker 1: 42:32

His gift is what?

Speaker 3: 42:34

Three feet doesn't look very heavy.

Speaker 1: 42:36

It's got weight to it. Oh, this one's got weight to it too. Ok, so here's the thing. I don't know what. Barby's wondering if we got very similar.

Speaker 2: 42:49

All right, so we just open them at the same time. Yeah.

Speaker 1: 42:52

Billy. Yeah, Billy will see as we open. Do I need a knife to open this?

Speaker 2: 42:55

I don't know, I don't think so, ok, maybe All right, we're open. All right, we're open, all right. They're long, thin rectangular boxes, oh yeah.

Speaker 1: 43:08

Ironic. So the both of the boxes are from. Dennis, which makes replica firearms.

Speaker 2: 43:19

So we know what is in there, but we don't know what is in there yet.

Speaker 1: 43:23

All right. Ok, you go and take your knife, open yours first. The nice thing is that we did get each other the same one at least, these are obviously different boxes. Yeah, oh yeah, you just saw.

Speaker 2: 43:34

There's a picture of it on the box, but hey, that's Cody.

Speaker 1: 43:39

It's a lot of wrapping in there and because I didn't want it to shake around, because it came pretty shaken from I don't know Spain, where it comes from- oh, so for that, that is so cool.

Speaker 2: 43:51

There's more.

Speaker 1: 43:52

You all get it out and say it for those who were running Dennis or Denny, I think, is the Spanish name. They make like one to one scale replicas replicas of firearms that, like, honestly, are just pretty hard to get in the US. Regardless of like, if you're firearms enthusiasts or not, it's so bad. What is that dude? Is it is it?

Speaker 2: 44:15

Thompson.

Speaker 1: 44:15

No, not Thompson.

Speaker 2: 44:16

It looks like what, what is it?

Speaker 1: 44:17

It doesn't get on the Russian version. Russian, yeah, ppsh 41.

Speaker 2: 44:22

41. All right.

Speaker 1: 44:24

Which was like the highest fire rate some machine gun in World War Two Um it's got a cool. What is it called A drum bag?

Speaker 3: 44:35

Yeah, the water that has like water in it or something.

Speaker 1: 44:38

No, there's no, oh no, no. This one, that was the Lewis gun. The Lewis gun had water in its barrel. This one they did. I have seen that they did put it in water to cool it off, oh it hurts, rack the bolt dude, you got to rack the bolt.

Speaker 3: 44:56

So this thing can't actually fire? It can't, it's not real.

Speaker 1: 44:59

They're all. They're all replicas that are like inoperable. Um, I think that can come off.

Speaker 2: 45:06

Yeah, it'll take some effort. You can take the orange plug off, yeah.

Speaker 1: 45:10

But yeah, and then I think, I think you just pull a trigger, dude, it'll, it'll, it'll, yeah let's go.

Speaker 3: 45:17

I mean, that's like that's got to be like pretty decent home defense, even Just yeah, as is.

Speaker 2: 45:23

Yeah, they're going to leave you alone if they're not armed. This thing's rowdy.

Speaker 1: 45:27

Yeah, and. I guess two with those the weird. This is how close the prop is. I saw a guy who was reviewing it before I purchased it as a gift for Pat. He was like I'm going to. He took the real real mag, the real drum mag from his real PPSH and it plugged in and seated like a seated fully in the in the replica. So I did look it up. If you want you know we should discuss this because I'm thinking about it now after I got into it we could get a PPSH replica that fires. It's about two thousand dollars and it fires nine millimeter.

Speaker 2: 45:58

Oh, so it's a rep, it's a, it's a real gun, but it doesn't fire the original yeah it's like it's not from World War Two.

Speaker 1: 46:04

Right Doesn't fire the original Russian nine by 38 millimeter, but it's like a semi auto one and I was kind of like, oh well, maybe we get a real one one day to hang on the wall. That's also the idea, is like we want these for the podcast.

Speaker 2: 46:16

Yeah, but we don't like the idea of nature of where this of podcast studios located and the potential for robbery.

Speaker 3: 46:24

Right.

Speaker 2: 46:25

And just keeping guns out. In general, we think replicas will be better.

Speaker 1: 46:28

Yeah, that way, in case someone breaks in, they steal a replica off the wall and not a real ten thousand dollar PPSH one. All right, I'm going to open this one. I'm excited now. I'm happy we didn't get the same one.

Speaker 2: 46:40

That would have been awful right. Well, I'll like yes and no, though Like it's still like you know, but oh man. So this is, this is a cool gun. Yeah, it's a Drums. The guns with drum mags are just cool looking. I don't care, I don't care who you are.

Speaker 1: 46:57

Oh, here we go. All right, we get this. It's really wedged in there, holy smokes, it's really a wedged in there.

Speaker 2: 47:09

Hopefully nothing's breaking off.

Speaker 3: 47:10

That looks beautiful. The old 30, 30. Yeah, this one 45. Your close.

Speaker 2: 47:20

This was this one Shot of modern rifles. Today Shoot the 30 30 in this caliber. But this is a 1866 yellow boy, which, by Henry, is what it's modeled after, and so it's a lever action cowboy gun, and any gun with a lever works, even if it doesn't fire Boy, it's fun to pump the lever on.

Speaker 1: 47:41

That's the whole point, the whole point for the ASMR. Oh yeah, Well, the whole idea is like the reason to own it in the first place is just to be able to go. I mean, that's it Right. That's the sound that everyone wants.

Speaker 2: 47:53

Yeah, don't push too hard forward on that. That's I discovered.

Speaker 1: 47:56

Yeah it looked like it, we might have to tell you yeah, there's some.

Speaker 2: 47:59

We're going to revisit that. But anyways pretty sick with our after doing blood meridian and now that we're about to do lonesome dove, I picked this one because this is right in there with. This is what the rifles would have been that the lonesome dove guys after the most part they would have been. This is 1866. It's a little bit like it's barely after lonesome dove, but this is the style they would have been had out there. See, we got like the ranging for like lobbing that, like in episode three of the lonesome dove series of the book, when Gus has to, you know, get it done at like a half mile, but anyways, so very cool. So we got whiskey. Whiskey to represented as well as the old Wild West.

Speaker 1: 48:47

My, my concern was that when I brought this one, I didn't want to bring your gift with it, right, because I was afraid if I brought this you were like oh, he got me one, did I give it away? When I brought the?

Speaker 2: 48:58

I had ordered your gift like right before you walked in with the box and I was like we might have got like but can I hold it?

Speaker 1: 49:07

Oh yeah, for sure. But watch out the. The forend is a little slippery up there because the band is very tight.

Speaker 2: 49:12

Did you already mess with this, or do you want to hear?

Speaker 1: 49:14

Oh yeah, yeah, I've missed. I made sure nothing was broken.

Speaker 2: 49:19

But that's so.

Speaker 1: 49:20

So now we just need to like actually put them on the wall.

Speaker 2: 49:23

If you have a rack, how to rack them up there?

Speaker 1: 49:25

Big old, big old hooks, big hooks. For this one for sure.

Speaker 2: 49:29

Oh, that's so awesome.

Speaker 3: 49:30

This is my, this is my dream gun to like actually have.

Speaker 1: 49:33

Yeah is one of the good news for you. But like I was just at Shields and for like real, like one to one, thirty, thirty or going even older back, like doing like the forty five, wrong cult.

Speaker 3: 49:45

Yes.

Speaker 1: 49:47

You can get them for like nine hundred bucks.

Speaker 3: 49:50

Like they're pretty attainable.

Speaker 1: 49:51

Now the only thing is is like You're definitely paying for the, the name, yeah the nostalgia, yeah, the nostalgia, I love my grandfather's thirty thirty. I actually cleaned it up and gave it to him as a Christmas gift last year. Like took it to the gunsmith and had everything tightened up and worked on and just maintained because it was pretty beat up and give it back to him as a Christmas gift. So like that has like nostalgia, but the a lot of the ones nowadays I think like you're paying for the, the vibe and for like the name of it, because you can definitely get like I was seeing stuff, like you can get modern levered action guns that aren't going to look like they're from a Wild West movie but you can get them shoot in like three, fifty, seven or forty four Magnum and they are like five hundred bucks. All right, they're just not going to have the Winchester name on it. They're not going to have wood furniture, it's going to be Synthetic. Yeah, but dude, good ish man. Thank you, bro, thank you.

Speaker 2: 50:58

That's fun. And the cabinet in the I really got to figure that out. The cabinet in the back here, though I've always. When I originally bought it, I wanted to turn it into a gun safe too.

Speaker 1: 51:09

Like yeah, cut the Cut.

Speaker 2: 51:11

The take that shelf out and cut it where you could rest guns in it and put a light in it. But the thing about it is it's a window with no lock, so you can't really make it into a gun safe. Yeah, like until I'm like an old grandpa someday I can put some shotguns in there, but like I got like three year olds running around like that's not an option right now.

Speaker 3: 51:29

But I think that's actually illegal, it's not.

Speaker 1: 51:33

It's.

Speaker 2: 51:33

Colorado. No, it should be. It should be, but it's not. Yeah, so like it's very irresponsible to not lock your stuff up. But OK, I want to be very clear about this next thing it is mine, but I brought it to share.

Speaker 1: 51:47

Oh, like you got it because you want to like show it off, because this well, I want to show it off, kind of like I showed you off my enigma. Yes, sir Holster, yes, everybody go get a shelf in enigma. I love it. It's for kids because you'll carry him while tucking a shirt in.

Speaker 2: 51:59

Fancy Holster. That's my promo. There you go, all right, but here's the deal. This was a gift to me from my brother-in-law at Christmas, so it's mine, but I'm going to share it with you, at least some of it. And it's these dude. Oh so, billy might not know about this, but here so so there's a gifting.

Speaker 1: 52:21

We got a gift for all of our guests on the show.

Speaker 2: 52:23

Yes, so. So one of our favorite podcasts is the Sean Ryan show, his company's vigilance elite, and every beginning of every episode he gives them these gummy bears and they're like, they're so hard to get, like they're always sold out and so, just like the hype, the hype around them is very strong, so it's just a gummy bear.

Speaker 3: 52:43

It's, it's literally, it's not just a gummy bear.

Speaker 2: 52:45

It's just, but it is just a gummy bear, and that there's, it's like a unique recipe. There's no. There's no tea Like there are. It's just candy. It's not a no medicinal elements.

Speaker 3: 52:54

There's no weed or anything. It's also like I'm going to sleep after this.

Speaker 2: 52:57

No, there's no, it's just. It's just literally just candy, but it's the hype around. It's just because you he always gives them to his guests and they're they're always sold out. So I wanted to try them and we're going to see Randall review.

Speaker 1: 53:07

People do say they are like the best, some of the best they've had.

Speaker 2: 53:09

So I don't know, but anyways got to give them a shot and they are gummy bears and I like them.

Speaker 1: 53:18

But hold on. And now, when I read the reviews, because I was like these are just, this, is just white labeled Haribo.

Speaker 2: 53:28

You know, I mean like whatever.

Speaker 1: 53:30

But everyone said like no, these actually taste different. Each one has a different flavor. They're not all the same flavor. So I was like, and one thing I saw everyone say was the smoothness. Yeah, they're smooth, like a creamy smoothness and I was like I don't think I don't get how gummy candy can be creamy or smooth.

Speaker 2: 53:47

I do think they're smooth now, I think I kind of understand what people are saying Because we need a side by side of, like you know, other gummies, but like they're, they're soft, they're real soft. Do they have real sugar in?

Speaker 1: 53:58

them? I'm sure they do, because Haribo Mm. Hmm, you guys ever had the sugar free Haribo gummy bears.

Speaker 2: 54:04

No, oh my gosh.

Speaker 1: 54:05

It's the most brutal diarrhea. But like when that was like one thing, like that people I remember. I remember like Haribo gummy bears got super popular when I was in college. Like that was when they really blew up. I felt like here and it was just like some, some girl on this, like trip we're on, was just like, yeah, I got the sugar free Haribo. They don't, they taste like the real thing. We're like awesome, yeah, and we just were eating handfuls out of this giant one gallon bag and everybody the next day had just the worst cramps and stomach ache and diarrhea. And it's because of that, whatever the fake sugar they use is and gummy products is like brutal on your digestive.

Speaker 2: 54:44

Yeah, I mean, I'm I'm sure. And number one ingredient corn syrup. You know that's what this is, but anyways, I thought that was fun. That is funny. It's just it's like you hear about him on the show. But you can, they're always sold out on the website. So my brother in law, he just he checked in like every day, for like weeks, until he could get me these.

Speaker 3: 55:04

That's a great gift it was.

Speaker 2: 55:05

I was really excited about it. Just the thought.

Speaker 3: 55:08

I will say I had a blue one and a yellow one. The yellow one tasted exactly like Mellow Yellow OK, and it was kind of a flavor blast.

Speaker 1: 55:18

I did. I did have two different colors. I had a peach colored one and a blue one and I thought they I mean they were noticeably different tastes. Oh yeah.

Speaker 2: 55:27

They are so anyways, and we can't kill it here because I got to take some to my brother. I won't kill. I just was trying to see if I could taste the ones that I just had different flavors for sure.

Speaker 1: 55:38

OK, all right. Well, dude, no, this is a great gift. And immediately I just like when you pulled them out, I just heard Sean Ryan in my head going Everyone here gets a gift on the show and we got you a special gift here the vigilance elite gummy bears. They're hard to get it like every time he gives it he says the same thing and it's in that tone.

Speaker 2: 56:01

And he always says the thing I love that. He always says that. I'm always like I feel kind of bummed. He's like any guess, any guess what? They are no one. Most of the guests are like I have no idea A gun, but he gives them to everybody.

Speaker 1: 56:12

So it means like they never watch my show before. There is, like, I think, two or three people he's had on who, like in the last year, like oh yeah, I know what's coming.

Speaker 2: 56:24

They're like I came here for the gummy bears, my friend, Anyway. So vigilance, elite gummy bears. Go get you some if you can, if you have the discipline to hit the refresh button until they.

Speaker 1: 56:35

Back in stock, but anyways, the white one is distinctly Pina Colada. That's wonderful, that's like a strong pina colada, it's good On the show.

Speaker 2: 56:44

Ryan said he's like he always tells him like it's like just no weed in him. He said he said someone wrote into him like hey man, like I'm on my third bag and like nothing is not feeling anything, he's like what's the deal with your product? And the dude's like it's just gummy bears. He's like, oh, right on, right on.

Speaker 1: 57:02

What a letdown. Well, that grape one is creepy, ok. Well, you know we're talking a little bit. I was talking with Billy a little bit before we started. But you know holiday recap, you know Christmas and we're all married here. I don't have any kids yet, but you guys got kids and you know the holidays, I think, can be very flippant, enjoyable or unenjoyable, Just due to like having to appease a bunch of like you could easily have. You know, four families you have to appease, especially if your parents are separating or spouse's parents are separated. You know, whatever it may be, I think there's a lot of wrapped up in it too, because of your expectation of getting gifts, receiving gifts, whatever. You know there's a lot of emotions, could be high and stressful. So I was just kind of you know figure we could do kind of a light brief evaluation of our holiday break with then, you know, kind of just like an overall like what are the holidays you know to you, like what is the point of it to you? What do you enjoy the most about it? What do you really look to get out of it? Cause I would wager most of our listeners probably are similar to us and I think I can say this is pretty confidence, but I think Mace Windu loves Christmas.

Speaker 2: 58:33

Well, she wears a Christmas sweater every day, a different one every day for all of December.

Speaker 1: 58:39

And Billie Jean absolutely loves Christmas too. Like she ekes as soon as we are like home from Thanksgiving to put stuff out. You know she, like she, is squeaking with excitement to get the place decorated, which is great, I love it. I just don't have the same enthusiasm. It may not happen if it happened without her.

Speaker 2: 59:03

We really wouldn't. So anyway, just hang a Costco brand sock up with a thumbtack, on your wall, just like that counts for a stocking.

Speaker 1: 59:13

Anyways. So, pat, do you want to start us off? A little recap, and then you know what the holidays are to you.

Speaker 2: 59:19

Would you enjoy about them? Yeah, so the we spent time with both sides of the family and it was good. I was freaking sick starting off, which is like it's kind of a blur right now what was going on and the it was. We went to my in-law side for like for Christmas and it was good. We had 10 people in a thousand square foot house. So that's tiny. I'm not going to make complaints Intimate, I'm just going to say it's tight. That's all you know, and it's good. We, luckily, we all like enjoy each other and it's great. But you know, it's just like it is. If we didn't have a good family dynamic, That'd be tough. It could be a very rough like no one there is no, like go to your own space type thing. And so, luckily, we are like super close. We all love to see each other and so we, we enjoy being with each other, but it is like it's not vacationing. You know, you're, you're in the how do you sleep 10 people?

Speaker 1: 1:00:31

in a thousand square foot house.

Speaker 3: 1:00:33

Good question.

Speaker 1: 1:00:34

Because we. Our apartment is 980 square feet.

Speaker 2: 1:00:38

I know, I know you just do it, you just you put some hay on the ground, yeah, yeah, we, we packed in, we just packed in the rooms and so, but it, it's tight and it's good, like our, my sister-in-law, who's in high school. She had to like give up her room for, like me and my wife, to sleep in, and she had to sleep in the bedroom with kids, with the boys. You know like and so like which. Like when she was in like middle school it was like super fun for her and is, but now it's kind of like like there's a man sleeping in my bed and in my room I can't like go get stuff out of my room. Like you know, like whatever, but it's good, we had a, we had a good time and what we're right now. What's interesting is trying to figure out like holiday dynamics where, because we're young families, our only traditions we have are at our homes, with our families. So there, there's coming a time now where, like my boys will wake up and have Christmas morning in my house, right Like and like, so our family traditions will start and like grandparents can come like be a part of it and be there and I want them there. And I want my boys to have memories at both grandparents' houses, right Like. I really want I have good memories of like Christmas morning at my house growing up, but also have good memories of like occasionally we would like stay at a grandparents' house or, like you know, the day after we go to a grandparents' house, whatever. So I want good memories for all that. I want like awesome relationships for all that. But the navigation now is just like okay, how do we best Like now that my boys are at the age of Santa and you know having their own family traditions and figuring out like what our family looks like, like Christmas morning is going to have to start like just shifting to like, to my house and like have our own family traditions and those sorts of things. So that'll be a like. That'll be a bittersweet thing, I know, for the grandparents cause. Both parents on both sides love being parents and love having kids home for the holidays and we have like beautiful families and like. So it's just like I know it's going to be like a even like they'll agree like yes, it's time for you to like do your own thing. You know, in a way, you know like like have your Christmas morning also like that makes me sad you won't be at my house that morning. You know, like that's where, like you know, cause they, they want to be together. That being said, I think the best part about all that is that we all still want to be together. Cause that's not the case for a lot of people on holidays.

Speaker 1: 1:03:16

A lot of families.

Speaker 2: 1:03:17

Yeah, it's a. It's a very normal thing, Like what I'm saying is a very normal thing for a lot of people and also for a lot of other people, that's a, not a normal situation for them to be living in.

Speaker 1: 1:03:26

So yeah, and are you a on the scale of like a Scrooge Grinch?

Speaker 2: 1:03:35

Yeah, and Buddy the Elf, like, where do you find yourself in Christmas?

Speaker 1: 1:03:39

holiday Cause and I say Grinch in the middle. Cause Grinch comes around, he comes around, and if you watch the Jim Carrey one, he's like it's very up and down.

Speaker 2: 1:03:50

You know yeah.

Speaker 1: 1:03:50

By the end he's really about Christmas. But also in the middle of the movie he's a really about Christmas.

Speaker 3: 1:03:55

You know what I?

Speaker 1: 1:03:55

mean Like it's got, it's got, it's up and down. So I'm wondering like, where do you find yourself?

Speaker 2: 1:03:59

Yeah, I mean the. I feel like it's normal, like as a human, from like the day you learn that he's not real onward. It's like a just a crawl towards like grinchness and or Scrooge's and the different things that happen in your life can take you down the paths of, like, becoming a Grinch or a Scrooge or a denialist who go over to like the Buddy, the Elf, you know, or they're just a person that has peace in their heart. I don't know, you know, but but or they're just a very happy person.

Speaker 1: 1:04:33

Exactly, and that happens, spoiled by the world.

Speaker 2: 1:04:37

Yeah, which is beautiful Good thing.

Speaker 1: 1:04:39

Innocence retained, but I think I'm, I'm.

Speaker 2: 1:04:45

I'm somewhere in between the Grinch and the Buddy the Elf, yeah.

Speaker 3: 1:04:48

Cause.

Speaker 2: 1:04:48

I'm. I do love Christmas, and what's, what's the best part about it is now like when you have kids the joys of life become new again. I think I've said this before on the podcast too, that where it's like I'd never call up like Mick Billy. Guess what we're doing today? We're going to the zoo.

Speaker 1: 1:05:07

You know right.

Speaker 2: 1:05:08

Like you'd be like and you'd be like what? No, like that. That is not happy to spend my day. I'm not going, I have work, but in the morning with my boys, if I say, guess what we're doing today, we're going to the zoo. It's like dance party, excitement, running around the house and then we go to the zoo and it's fun and I enjoy it myself and it's great, you know. And so same thing with Christmas. Now it's like you get to the joy. Part of the one of the joys of having kids is getting to relive it through their eyes. You know, it's like this year my oldest like he's three, almost four, so he's like he gets it.

Speaker 1: 1:05:43

He's like he has Christmas memories now.

Speaker 2: 1:05:46

Yeah, yeah, it's funny because he'll talk about like last Christmas and or like he just yeah, he knows, he kind of knows what's expecting. Like my youngest, he's like it's great, we put like his favorite, we put his favorite snack in his stocking and so like he like pulls like cool toys out of his stocking and then pulls out a fig bar snack. It's not like a good snack, it's a fig bar snack and he's just like just handing it to me, like open it, open it. Now, I knew it was a snack man. Like he's oblivious to what's going on in my youngest and my oldest is like right now he's been on a big astronaut kick and so like we got him some rocket ship stuff and got a model rocket, like for 10 year olds that we launched and like whatever, like astronauts suit and all these things that he's like that's dope, like I was just all in all in playing astronaut. So, yeah, I think I'm just transitioning to being the dad at Christmas you know, it's like that's the, there's a dad.

Speaker 3: 1:06:40

now you know which is good so what are you going to do about the the Santa?

Speaker 2: 1:06:46

situation. The philosophical approach to Santa Claus.

Speaker 3: 1:06:49

Yes.

Speaker 2: 1:06:50

So I think that we've kind of nailed it down. We're like we are doing Santa. We're not going to just like straight up, like you know, for the sake of like avoiding all like all therapy. Like, and I get the part two where it's like. I do get the briefly, I do get the arguments around like show you someone who's like. So you're going to raise a kid, you're going to tell them about the Easter Bunny, the tooth fairy and Santa Claus and you're going to tell them about a guy called Jesus Christ.

Speaker 3: 1:07:18

Right.

Speaker 2: 1:07:19

And they're going to grow up and they're going to find out three of those things are bullshit at very young ages.

Speaker 3: 1:07:26

And then even be a let down.

Speaker 2: 1:07:29

Right, and then and then when they, when they hit high school, college age, that fourth guy does, that become bullshit too, mm, hmm.

Speaker 1: 1:07:40

Right.

Speaker 2: 1:07:41

And I I've probably gone through even my own personal walk with some of that too. You know, like of, am I just institutionalized or am I like they'll actually have a life of faith, you know, or whatever, but, um, so, so, that being said, we are going to do Santa. I'm not going to like hold on to it, no, holds barred, as hard as I can Like, um, uh, you're not going to have, like some homeless guy in the backyard, like like making up, like yeah, like every doing every little trick to like, make it super real and all this stuff and like. But we are going to have the fun of it and my main focus is I really want to always use Santa to point them to Jesus and also and talk about like the real stories of, like Saint Nick and how, like the stories we have of that person, who was someone who, like, was a bit of a rebel, who cared about children and and Christ, and then also my favorite version of Santa is the Santa from Narnia, so in Narnia it's a winter. One of the classic lines in the first Narnia book is it's always winter, but never Christmas. And when Aslan the king is returning, Santa comes, and he comes to the four pevency children and he um, and he finds them and they're in this world. And these four kids, who are now destined to become kings and queens and free these people, um, in the moment are highly unequipped. They don't have anything of which with they can conquer an enemy, become rulers, become good and just call for help, Call for help or help people. And Santa gives the kids, he gives. He gives one a sword and a shield and he gives the other a bow and arrows, and he gives. But he also gives her a horn to call for help. And he gives the youngest a vial that has medicine, that it's from, it's from the, a flower from the sun. They can cure all things, and so he is an agent of Aslan. He is an agent who, like, equips you for the coming of the king. And so, like I do want to like shape my kids understanding around, like Christmas is about celebrating the coming of a Messiah, we do the Santa Claus thing, but I want there to be less emphasis on Santa compared to Christ, for sure. And and and always have that as a, a method and a proverb of of you know, proper or not proper, but um, yeah, a proverb like story of like how, pointing, pointing them to, to who Christ is, and so, like how I'm going to do that, I don't know, but that's like the general game plan, so, but I don't know.

Speaker 3: 1:10:23

Like, like, are you guys doing it or is it like well thought out?

Speaker 2: 1:10:26

So I don't know, that's yeah.

Speaker 3: 1:10:31

I think I have a scrooge.

Speaker 1: 1:10:33

Hey dude. Um, I'm. I wonder if Billie Jean would say I'm a scrooge. I think I'm between a scrooge and a Grinch. But Billy, let's go I break it down for us. Well, yeah, like how was your holidays and where do you kind of fall?

Speaker 3: 1:10:49

Okay, All right, Because I just want to respond to the Saint Nick, but I can hold that back. Um, yeah, and I think that it maybe gives a little bit of context. But, um, holidays are really hard for me. You know where I family is kind of a broken thing. In my experience, Um, and holidays have always seemed to highlight sort of the frack, the fraction of that. I think I said that right, yeah, Um and uh. So I tend to get like pretty irritable around the holidays and, uh, my wife feels that more than anyone you know, and so I kind of come away from the holidays feeling like a little bit of regret around, being a bit of a dick, yeah, yeah, and it takes me a while to kind of process it. And it's like the same thing happens every year with every holiday where I'm like I just want to go into the woods you know, and just kind of escape it all, and I'm sure I'm not alone in that, you know yeah. Um, but I now have a soon to be two year old and she is like it's. I have like a bit of ambivalence around it because she's so excited and she's the center of attention and I have. My wife's parents are divorced, and my parents are divorced, and so the holidays have always been like chaos, chaos robust you know and every committee to. Yeah, and ever since she came into the world that's been pretty heightened. But every time we land at a place it's just so fun to see her like loved so deeply. And you know I might be a little critical of the way people love on her, but it's, it's all, it's all just like so cool to see her like making these bonds with all of our family that are going to be around, you know, for as long as they're around. So that was cool. I was like a big difference this year. Um, the one thing that I kind of hate about Christmas is this like you know, the consumerism side of it that that really kind of gets under my skin, and this is where I kind of feel like I'm maybe a little bit of a scrooge. Yeah, because, my daughter. It's like understanding, like getting shit now Mm hmm. And she was around last Christmas, but she was a baby Like she didn't make any connection yeah she didn't make any connection.

Speaker 2: 1:13:37

She didn't know the word, mine, no, she didn't know the word.

Speaker 3: 1:13:40

Yeah, that's one, and uh, that's probably her most common word these days. But uh, like it kind of makes me sad because it feels like this kind of indoctrination into like things, you know, and she got so many presents and it was so fun, you know, watching her wrap things and get excited, unwrap things and get excited, and there's a part of me that's like really sad about that too.

Speaker 1: 1:14:08

And we also didn't do gifts, you know, and I know we were talking a little bit about this before, like you didn't do gifts as a kid growing up, or you just didn't do any Christmas gifts in your house.

Speaker 3: 1:14:18

Like we kind of like protest the whole gift. Thing. You and your wife yeah, okay, but we get a lot and there's like a. It's just like a weird situation that we find ourselves in with Christmas and that's just the gift side, like there's the whole family side too. That's complicated, but, um, you know, I don't.

Speaker 1: 1:14:41

I think I haven't really had had enough time to really think about it, to be honest, but yeah, I guess my question too, like I think this is always like where I feel my heart is revealed the most is you know, how do you feel about giving someone a gift versus how do you feel about receiving a gift from the same person? Right, and I think that's like really indicative of like. If you're like I got beef with the holidays, I just don't know what it is, and then you start like thinking through those things, Then it's like I think it's helped me narrow down where my beef is, because I'm a lot like you, Right, Like I have, even though I'm pro capitalism, I'm pro, I'm red, white and blue American. I believe we have an economic society that is doing okay. It's gross. I hate the consumerism, capitalism, around holidays especially.

Speaker 2: 1:15:34

Christmas Right.

Speaker 1: 1:15:35

And so like I got like I have the same kind of issue, but I don't have it. Like you know, we were talking before the podcast, before we started recording. I've never had beef or an issue getting a gift for someone. I don't really get a lot out of it. Like I enjoy seeing someone feel like touched, that I got them something they enjoy, but it's not like I, that's not my number way of showing my love for someone. Yeah Right. I don't like getting gifts at all I at least anymore. I used to really like it as a kid. Yeah, I don't like it anymore and I mean I'll talk about I could. I could go to that. But I guess I was like wondering like what does that? How does that feel for you? Like, when you think about giving gifts versus giving gifts, I mean I'm like I'm like versus receiving gifts, like does that help pinpoint kind of like your beef with it?

Speaker 3: 1:16:23

It did. It does because you know you're. I was just listening to you and I think that for me it kind of malfunctioned a little bit because I am jaded towards the holiday and I brought that into it, kind of robbed me, I think, because I didn't get anyone. I didn't even get my wife a gift, you know, and looking back, I think I could have put a lot more thought into other people, and that's, I think that's the point.

Speaker 1: 1:16:53

Yeah.

Speaker 3: 1:16:53

Like taking like time to think about the people that you care about and getting them a thing. That sort of person or personifies or represents like I care about you and I got you this, this meaningless thing. But when you use this or when you see it, or you know when it's, when you encounter it, you're going to remember that I got this for you and I care about you. Right, like that's. Maybe that's the point, but I think that because I get so wrapped up in my contempt for the holiday, it robs me of that Sure. And so then, when I receive a gift and it's someone who like knows me and like got me something, and like I'm like wow, this is great, you know, I got this. Like I'll show you, I got this. Like six switchblade.

Speaker 2: 1:17:57

Yeah, that's sweet. Is that Kershaw? Yeah, nice dude, that thing is sweet yeah.

Speaker 1: 1:18:02

That's a good looking. That's like a reverse tanto Kershaw. That's a nice knife.

Speaker 3: 1:18:05

It's a nice knife and last Christmas I was all up in arms because I like couldn't open anything and like my brother-in-law has like a cool blade and he's like, oh, I got you. And I just felt like I was like man, yeah, yeah emasculated is the best word for it. And so this year they got me this and it was like, wow, this is like a year of like you and you thought back to this, these moments, and it's simple and it's also very nice. And I received this gift and there were some other ones too. That are good examples and I just feel like man, my protest, like quote unquote protest, is actually like really selfish. Yeah, okay, and I think I need to consider that more. You know, not necessarily letting my ideals get in the way of my relationships, mm-hmm.

Speaker 1: 1:19:01

I 100% understand that man, like I think I've been there. I don't know as much about Christmas, but I have found, especially since being married, that a lot of the things I was so firmly in turned to mud real quick. And it goes from like I'm firmly rooted in this concrete foundation of this is my opinion and how I feel about this. And then I see an emotion reflected on my wife's face. I'm like wait a second, this is not that firm. I'm gonna pick up my feet and move my opinion to something else, or excited.

Speaker 2: 1:19:40

Or excited as important as I thought. Well, you just see you don't like to hold that ground.

Speaker 1: 1:19:43

And like you see it reflected in the emotion of someone you deeply love, and you're like I've never I've had this opinion or this belief or this stance, and I've never had to deal with it being hurtful to somebody, and now I see that it might hurt their feelings. So therefore, I'm gonna pick up my feet and move. Like I don't like this, so I do relate to that. Santa, though, before we go to my thing. What is your? What do you think you guys are gonna do about Santa? Or like, is it gonna be something like you just tell her not to tell the other kids at school he's not real? Or like what's your plan?

Speaker 3: 1:20:23

Oh man, I want to be like, tell him.

Speaker 2: 1:20:26

Just tell him.

Speaker 3: 1:20:27

Yeah, like she will always know that Santa is an imaginary like character and that's pretty important to me, Mostly because of this American life they did this whole special about. Have you ever heard these stories of like?

Speaker 1: 1:20:47

I was wondering if you said this American life as in a reference to this. Or if you were just saying that as like a general euphemism.

Speaker 3: 1:20:55

No, like the channel. They had a few, but the one that really stuck out to me was like these parents, who took it way too far, Actually hired a homeless guy and like, had a sleigh, like breakdown in the golf course behind their house and was like, and now like those kids are like.

Speaker 2: 1:21:16

What's real.

Speaker 3: 1:21:16

Yeah, they're like. Their whole concept of reality is like it was skewed. It's a Truman show and they just don't know anymore Right, exactly, and this is another one of those areas where I think maybe I'm a little overcompensating. You know, potentially.

Speaker 1: 1:21:32

Hey man, I'm not a parent, so I have no idea.

Speaker 3: 1:21:34

Yeah, but I think the only thing that I know is that she'll know that Santa doesn't come through the chimney at night. But I do really resonate with what you're talking about, Pat, with bringing it back to the reality of it and the true story. And you know, I've read those Narnia books and was definitely moved by that part of the novel, so maybe we'll adopt that.

Speaker 2: 1:22:06

Yeah, cause I think, yeah, like to even rephrase what I was saying, to like I've thought about, too, being like, yeah, celebrating Santa, like how we celebrate things that are gone now too, like you know, this is a representation of you know, it's fun that Santa comes down the chimney or, like you know, sneaks in here, but like, yeah, it's pretending, or like you know. And where do we draw the line? I don't know, cause it is really hard for me too to be like, cause it's like childhood is so short, magic is so fleeting in, like our lives. Or it's like it's very quick before you're like between 18 and 30 and just becoming jaded in a lot of areas in your life. So, like, how do you like capture kids' imagination and the wonderment without also like to your point? You know wrecking, you know their concept of reality and kind of like I said too at the very beginning of like, also like I want I don't want Jesus to be lumped in with the Easter Bunny Right, cause that's important to me too. So how do I navigate it? And I think it's it has to be approached in some sort of maybe different way than it has been in the past. Or, or, like you know, sooner, it's like cause there was like six graders and like seventh graders walking around like he's the real deal, you know right. Like, if you learn when you're six or seven, I feel like you make it out okay If you learn when you're 13, you're in trouble.

Speaker 3: 1:23:31

You know like.

Speaker 2: 1:23:32

I don't know like what the-?

Speaker 3: 1:23:34

It has bigger consequences than I think we realize, right.

Speaker 2: 1:23:39

Exactly so. That's why it's worth thinking about, cause it's not just like a, it's not about tearing down tradition or tearing down like the old way, cause I get really, I get up and I'm just about like for some reason I have to just deconstruct everything and make it a new way right, cause that's not what we're talking about. We're talking about, like, what's best for our kids, and how do we hold on to something that's fun and also not have it damage? be, damaging, you know, cause that's not worth it. I don't know. I've got more thinking to do too on how we move it forward, cause also, like even my three year old's already onto, he was like he like had a Santa gift. It's like in wrapping paper from wrapping paper we had downstairs and he's three, he just goes. You're like this is from Santa and he just goes hey, this is the same wrapping paper we have downstairs, and not like has, like it's cool, santa has the same wrapping papers as he's like wait a second, yeah, this is what we have downstairs, you know like he's like he's already onto it, it's anyways.

Speaker 3: 1:24:39

It's like somehow the Santa conversation is like wrapped up in the sex conversation, where it's like this, like massively revealing yeah, it's your philosophy.

Speaker 1: 1:24:48

Santa's not real. You didn't come from a snork.

Speaker 3: 1:24:50

Yeah Right, babies don't just come from an island in the sky. You're kind of touching on my opinion of how I plan to integrate Santa Holidays.

Speaker 1: 1:25:06

Holidays were great. My in-laws. I call my father-in-law, my Phil. Phil I just say what up? Phil and my brother-in-law I call him Bill.

Speaker 2: 1:25:21

Phil and Bill.

Speaker 1: 1:25:21

Yeah, mill and Sil don't really work for my sister or mother-in-law.

Speaker 2: 1:25:26

You know they do this deal someday when you have one of those, yeah.

Speaker 1: 1:25:29

So but Phil and Bill just work, because those are also names. But we were at my in-laws and we had just moved my mother back to Colorado as well right after Thanksgiving. It's been an emotional year. My grandmother passed away in November, which was real tough, and this is like she was a big part of my holiday stuff as well. Like even if we were having a small Christmas as I got older, it was usually pretty much Christmas Eve with her and my grandpa and then Christmas day at our house and all that said like as she passed away. It's kind of the reason my mom moved back here and why she was able to come celebrate Christmas with our, you know, my in-laws, my wife's parents. So it was like there's a lot of emotion wrapped in it this holiday season and the feelings of like something's missing that won't ever be back. But there's also the beauty in. We're really blessed that my mom and my in-laws get along. I mean not just get along but like enjoy each other. She's kind of a tomboy, so Phil and her get along really well when it comes to a lot of the kind of outdoors camping stuff. But she's also, I would say, very spiritual too. So her and my mother-in-law kind of get along. My mother-in-law is very not like Eastern spiritual but a little bit Like you know she's got like more. Essential oils, you know, not necessarily essential, no, but no, like you're not wrong, she does Essential oil, jason, but like you know, like she, before going to like Tylenol, she has like more kind of like home remedies that she would recommend and stuff which work Like they're not. Like you know, put a like prick your thumb and dance around in the mirror three times and then you know.

Speaker 3: 1:27:26

Maybe some Epsom salt baths.

Speaker 1: 1:27:28

Yeah, stuff like that's more like homeopathic, Homeopathic yeah, that works without, like you know, putting something on your liver, which is fine, and it does work Like she's giving us stuff that works for our cold and flu all the time. But anyways, they all get along very well and so it's very much a blessing that we're all able to be together Christmas morning and give gifts to each other and stuff. And my mom's in a place right now where, just moving out here, she's like a little shy because she was like I don't really have the means to buy everyone a gift. But, you know, we reassured her that that wasn't the expectation and then, sure enough, when she was there too, like my in-laws very much like made it clear like the expectation is not that you have a gift for every single person, right, and all the other kids and stuff like that. So it was really great. Everyone got along really well. It was really beautiful to just see everyone there. My mom got really emotional and went to my mother-in-law and just thanked her for creating such a open home environment and being able to like keep everyone during the holidays and like lodge them. So it was really beautiful. I felt like I saw for the first time in you know quite a few years, like the spirit of Christmas, of people being brought together united by this spirit of thankfulness, and like the greatest gifts were not the things wrapped right, the gifts were being present, with one another, enjoying one another's company, and also like enjoying that in the like, in the moment of recognizing there is company that I miss, that is not here now, right. And so that kind of all that to combine made it very emotional, very powerful, but also just put me in a place of Thanksgiving that said almost Scrooge McDuck Grinch, right. And I say this because I grew up getting gifts for Christmas. Christmas Eve would be at the grandparents house, open up gifts there as a big family. Christmas day was at my house, of course. You know my mom's house and open up gifts, and so I was spoiled, Ryan, with gifts and toys. Growing up as a kid my mom kind of leaned into Santa, but not really hard. But after I graduated high school I was going to community college and working a full-time job. That was a graveyard shift, security, mall cop job. I was just freaking fried and dead and my grandfather and I were living together in a house and he was gone for Christmas. He was like out of town visiting his grandkids from a previous marriage and he left before Christmas day and I had been working on finals and stuff and so I came home and he was already gone. And then it was like the Christmas break after my first semester doing community college and I was just like alone with my dog and at first there was this sadness and then I go ahead.

Speaker 2: 1:30:29

I was just picturing the Grinch with Max.

Speaker 1: 1:30:32

It was dude, it was. He's just like.

Speaker 2: 1:30:34

I hate Christmas.

Speaker 1: 1:30:37

I have pictures of me with that dog on Christmas day, just like in bed, Like you know. She's just like chilling with me and I'm, you know. And we went for a walk around this park down in like Denver metro area and there was no one around, right Cause it's Christmas day, so everybody's in their house doing Christmas, and I was just like man, like my grandpa didn't even ask me if I want to give. No one sent me any gift. I'm bummed. And then I was like there was just this like quiet stillness of like you spoiled bread, like what is it about? And I just like remember like that loneliness all of a sudden left and it was just like embarrassment and shame with like I have to sit with myself and recognize my selfishness and reflect on like thankfulness of, like well, what am I actually thankful for? And I was really thankful for my dog faith and I was really thankful that I had a good roommate that was my grandfather, and we got more time together and stuff that year. And I just found myself like my whole spirit change. And ever since then I've never been really good about gifts and getting gifts. I've been very like, just not about I don't want gifts every year. I don't want gifts at all. I prefer no one give me anything. I prefer just if they want to give us something. It'd be a utility thing. That would be like we were talking to each other like we're saving up for a house. If you want to give us a gift, a hundred bucks in that investment account will work great. You know that pays dividends over a couple of months.

Speaker 2: 1:32:10

I'm getting you furnace filters next year.

Speaker 1: 1:32:11

Thanks, man, seriously, I think my grandfather came back from his trip and he was like I didn't get you anything for Christmas, what do you want? And I was like windshield wipers and he got me new windshield wipers. But anyways, all that said, that's kind of my like spirit around Christmas and the holidays in general. It's changing as I married and I see in my wife that her thrill and enjoyment of the holidays is not about her getting gifts. It's not this like childish and mature view, but it is a really beautiful innocence around the idea of family being together and thankful for like one another at this time right, it's just kind of cool because I see that very much like saturated in her and her parents' home now, because Christmas is now finally for the first time changed to. Almost no kids are home ever outside of holidays, so we get to see the house is full again, we're all together, and then afterwards we know everyone's going back to wherever they are and the house is empty and so everyone's got this like really jovial spirit. And this year was really cool because most of the gifts were homemade, that were like pretty small, and so everything was very personal and so even it was even like more thankful for the simple things and the easy things and the racial relational things. So I'm coming around, I feel like I'm, my heart is growing right. But I'm still very anti-gifts, I think when we have kids, something I'd like is if we did no gifts anywhere else but our house and each year it's one gift and just something to simplify it and really just remove the expectation of gifts and stuff away, just cause I think it's healthy and I think I enjoy people more during the holidays, since I had that experience of like, confronting, like well, is Christmas just to me, getting gifts right, that said, the Santa Claus plan.

Speaker 2: 1:34:23

You're just going crampus, You're like he's coming for you.

Speaker 1: 1:34:27

He will eat your liver Santa's not real, but there is a demon who will kill you.

Speaker 2: 1:34:34

Christmas was actually a holiday established by Christians to combat paganism in the late fifth century and Santa is actually based on the Norse gods. Sorry, that's the anyways.

Speaker 1: 1:34:48

You look like the dude who would tell his kids that with your hair and the bow. Now my plan is to like, actually tell them that, like, like from a young age, like a very you know. Make sure the rhetoric is simple, but tell them, like, the reason we have Christmas now and it's called Christmas is because of a man named.

Speaker 3: 1:35:14

Nicholas.

Speaker 1: 1:35:15

And he believed in Jesus's message of essentially sell everything you own to give to the poor and, like, give to those who, without you know, the widows and the orphans. And he did that and it had such a dramatic impact on his community that, like it's literally blown into this, you know, global phenomenon and like you know, contextualizing that for a child right Of like and he was given sainthood right, he's recognized by people as such a good individual right that we kind of carry on this tradition in the spirit of, you know, christ's commands. Christmas, you know, means well what is the mass part?

Speaker 2: 1:35:58

It's not more Christ but it's like Christ, it's like Taco Bell's theme that lives the mass. It's for it.

Speaker 1: 1:36:07

It's like the sermon time.

Speaker 3: 1:36:09

The mass was.

Speaker 2: 1:36:10

Christ's new mass. Yeah, christmas Christ mass, but so yeah, the coming of Christ, and like Catholic falsehood would be that mass was focused on Jesus coming.

Speaker 1: 1:36:20

But for me, I like the idea of you know our children going up to the age where they can tell back to us, like you know. So why do? Why are we celebrating Christmas? Why are there gifts under the tree? It doesn't matter who it's from, why you know and like. I want my children to be able to be like well, st Nicholas. You know he lost his parents in this. His parents passed away in a fire and he inherited a lot of money from him and he believed to live out. You know Christ's command to get to, like, sell what you have and give to those who are without, and that's what he did. That's the idea of giving gifts now in memory of like Christ's command to, to give to those and like, cherish what we have, but also, like, cherish it with open hands. And I would like that to be the idea. And then like, also just tell him like, and some people tell their kids that a man named Santa, who's pretty much St Nick, comes down the chimney. Don't tell him that he's not real. You can just say why you celebrate Christmas, but don't spoil for the other kids, right? Because, like I do, that's a that's kind of like you know, like they're your kids, business. Yeah, now, my monkey's, not my circus. But like I do think like that, like I do think the St Nicholas story is good. I also think it is like magical in of its own Right, like in, like. I think it's kind of cool because I want my kids growing up Not necessarily idolizing, but having people they look up to in the memorial, like I want my son and daughter I don't care I'd be sick of my daughter had these figures that she looked up to, but I want them to look at like St Nicholas, I want them to look at William Wallace and I want them to like look at you know, martin Luther King and like see people that they're like. These are people who did great things that we have, you know, memories of that we celebrate because they did great things, a lot of them also in line and in spirit of like Christ commands. So I think that's the kind of approach I'll have with it.

Speaker 2: 1:38:22

I'm waking up my son when I get home. Listen, listen boy, he ain't real but don't tell anybody.

Speaker 1: 1:38:31

But all that said, too, I don't have kids. We'll see, I could easily be overwhelmed. You know, like I have the pressure, Like I have my stance now and I could easily be pressured out of it. Like, yeah, my wife Billy Jenkins. I was like let's just do it and I'll be like, okay we're all over pretty quick, that's fine.

Speaker 2: 1:38:50

Better helps coming along way these days We'll put in for the fun for the kids.

Speaker 3: 1:38:54

I refuse, though, to do the whole like naughty and nice. Oh yeah, yeah Thing like the my game.

Speaker 2: 1:39:03

Because here's the. I think this is where it does take even a further step away from. It, steps into the consumerism piece and like and also like. I get a reward for good behavior, the Krampus versus Santa or the Cole versus the present. You know like, yeah, the naughty and nice is ultimate behavior modification for attaining it's, it's. It is like one of the worst ways to set your kids up for life, in that If I do X, y, z, then my worth and value is this because of that and so, um, yeah, I agree, and it's hard because in here's also it's weird because there's a balance, like in the real world, if you do not behave correctly, you do like end up in jail. You don't get things right or you don't get the job, or you don't like play with others, you don't get the promotion, you don't find a spouse, but, that being said, that's stuff you can work on, on just having. But that's, that's an overflow. The good morals comes from an overflow of being someone who knows who they are and and acts the right way because they know the right way and they want to do the right thing, not because the right thing gets them the reward Right, and so I agree with that. For sure. I'm not even nice big time.

Speaker 3: 1:40:30

Yeah, I don't care if you're naughty.

Speaker 1: 1:40:33

Oh yeah.

Speaker 3: 1:40:33

Like you shouldn't be naughty.

Speaker 1: 1:40:35

I was just like you care.

Speaker 2: 1:40:36

Well, yeah, no but it doesn't change the way you feel about your like. Your daughter isn't going to be like dad loves me this year, right, because I didn't like put my shoes in the middle of the floor.

Speaker 3: 1:40:49

Yeah, right Maybe it's more like you are naughty, yeah, yeah, but you're also nice, you know.

Speaker 1: 1:40:56

I just I hate the idea of my child crying One because they didn't get the gift they wanted, but to the idea of, like, if I put a piece of coal and they're stocking and they cry, there's like something psychologically going on there that like I don't, like I would rather them get the piece of coal and like look at me, big guy, and be like oh man, yeah, I was bad.

Speaker 3: 1:41:19

Yeah.

Speaker 1: 1:41:20

Like what, oh my gosh. And like I just kind of like think there could be like almost not necessarily a learning lesson, but just a fun bonding experience with that. We're like maybe you do put something, like maybe you drill something into wood charcoal, it put it in the stocking and like, well, that's only good for one thing, toss it in the fire and then, like it burns out.

Speaker 3: 1:41:41

There's a little capsule Like absolute.

Speaker 1: 1:41:44

after the capsule cures, we open it up. I mean cools off, we open it up. There's a note in there. It's a scavenger hunt to the real gift.

Speaker 3: 1:41:49

Yeah.

Speaker 1: 1:41:49

Red rider BB gun.

Speaker 3: 1:41:51

Like, that's like you know, like.

Speaker 1: 1:41:52

So I think like I would want them to see that and be like oh my gosh like yeah there must be more to this because, dad wouldn't give me actually cold dad would do something cool with it.

Speaker 2: 1:42:01

That is a ring of power. Yeah, exactly Right. My father-in-law's statement is a good one is for kids. He says uh, for, especially for little kids. Jesus loves you so much you get gifts on his birthday. You know that's like you know, he's like you know that. That's it. Jesus loves you so much he's giving you. Get gifts on his birthday you know, and that it's this. It paints. That simple sentence paints the whole thing of selflessness, of giving unto others, giving to undeserved, you know, like being loved, being cherished even though it's not for you. So I have, but yeah, that has to be the root for for this. And then like, yeah, and then the way that we structure our holidays around it and our like traditions and stuff needs to stay focused on that, or else it just gets lost. And you know, good deals on a car low APR you know, whatever, like you know, every car commercially, like you, you like, only advertises during Christmas for some reason. I don't know what to deal with that.

Speaker 1: 1:43:07

Do they think? Just you know what I mean though. So, yeah. Yeah, no, I think that's great and I like I appreciate always like being able to sit down and hear other people's perspectives, because I think as I've gotten older, you know there's just way more charge around the holidays, because you realize it becomes way more of a it's a nature nurture thing, right, and you realize like this is a nurture thing and it's way different for everybody. I'm like how they were raised up with that expectation or not an expectation or you know whatever it comes from. And I think like that's something I've really come to appreciate is like the conversation around it, cause when you're a kid you kind of just think, I think you assume just about everybody is having the same experience today. You know what I mean. And then, like, as you get a little bit older, you realize like what they got a car for Christmas. This is bullshit.

Speaker 3: 1:44:03

No, dude. I mean, I was one of the kids on the tree at church. I was a boy on the tree and it's like you know you're poor when the principle of your school brings a turkey over. Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1: 1:44:18

I remember, like I remember my mom. You know I love her. I think she is okay with me saying like we didn't have a lot of money and I'm very thankful for what she did provide. She she cracked that whip on us to run the turkey truck and like get as many tickets in as possible. Like you go, do your laps on that turkey today, get us a turkey dude, cause I mean, it was one of those things it was never like I think I think of like we couldn't afford the turkey. I don't think we're ever that poor of like. It's a question that we got meat on the table for things giving it a Christmas, but it was one of those things like, hey, that's an extra 20 bucks. That could be the difference between you getting. Do you want to?

Speaker 3: 1:44:57

like exactly. You know what I mean.

Speaker 1: 1:44:59

Like it makes it either dispensable or not dispensable. So I get that dude.

Speaker 3: 1:45:03

I respect that Well, and also you were talking about your internal conversation on your lonely Christmas about being spoiled you know, and then sounds like.

Speaker 1: 1:45:16

It was, I mean, it's hard to say my grandparents. I felt like I got spoiled and I say this as like someone who I think I understand the worth of what I had, even though I know like we were definitely low in income on a single like on a single mom income, she still was able to give me the things that allowed me to have the illusion as a child that like we weren't less than or didn't have less. You know, and a lot of that came just like a lot of cheap toys, like a lot of fun cheap toys that could occupy me as a only child, but at times I had step siblings and a lot of that was just, you know, well applied imagination. So, yeah, I guess you're right, there's a little bit of a dichotomy there. I personally see it and I think I was spoiled. I was spoiled about people who loved me, who were very like giving, and they gave me a good childhood.

Speaker 2: 1:46:16

You got plastic stuff yeah, and I can also look back.

Speaker 1: 1:46:19

I can look back at it as like an adult and be like I know we did not have much, like I know my mom struggled and written I don't want to say struggled, because that makes it sound like she didn't succeed. She wrestled and succeeded very well. But I realized now objectively, like damn they were times where it was tough, and I appreciate it even more now, which is why I might say spoiled you know, because I know, whatever I got came at expense.

Speaker 3: 1:46:44

Yeah, the oh man, I just had it. But the, I guess it doesn't matter where you come from, you can still be spoiled. Oh, yeah, you know yeah, I agree yeah. I agree with that for sure, but I'm definitely impacted by your your story of your lonely Christmas. That makes me sad.

Speaker 1: 1:47:06

But I, oh, I mean, I don't know Like I love it. I love it, dude, I love. I feel freed. Hmm, you know what I mean? It's really weird, but I feel I feel more shackled and pressured With the pressure of telling people what I want and creating a shopping list, mm, hmm, and dude the. The idea of not having any emotions around, like Someone getting me something I don't want, I don't care for, mm, hmm, and having to feign emotion.

Speaker 3: 1:47:41

Yes, oh, thank you so much.

Speaker 1: 1:47:44

And like that. That is uncomfortable and I would rather just alleviate the whole thing as a whole and be like honestly, apply you know what, don't give me a gift. Whatever you're going to spend on me, let's apply it to someone who wants a gift and go in on that. You know what I mean. And like it's. In no way or shape or form do I want to excuse it as like it's virtuous. It's not. It's purely a comfort thing, makes me uncomfortable. Give me a gift, please, and give that to someone else. Or, if you want to give me a gift, give me something very utilitarian, yeah, because I will be appreciative for that and there's a lot of things that could be right.

Speaker 2: 1:48:28

I think there is a lot of value. I think there is value in having a lonely Christmas because of the fact that, like now, I'd say this if you've, if all of your Christmas is there are a lot of your Christmas has been lonely or hard that's. That's rough, like, if you have, like get the one it's good to. It's good to have perspective, like, to know, like to. On that day when you sit down and your kids are open in presence and your parents are over in the corner enjoying their coffee and like, you can also be like I've got buddies or like even people I don't know, but I do know who, like they're by themselves today and like. There's like a lindsay perspective to knowing, like when, like, because I've heard a lot of you know growing up people say, like you know, I know the holidays can be hard for a lot of people and it's hard for, like, if you're a kid from like a stable home or healthy home or whatever. It is just like I don't get it. Like, what's that mean? Like how is it hard on the holidays? Oh yeah, it's like like. So having that perspective of you know people don't have the means to you know celebrate or and or or the their family structure, it degraded, it went rotten and it's, and it's. It's not fun, and or there's this year the matriarch is gone and I don't know what to do with that, Right, and that was the person who made Christmas happen, or, like you know, so like there's. Just it helps lend perspective to that whole, helps you, you know, engage others.

Speaker 1: 1:49:57

Yeah, and I guess I should also rephrase one or two. I want to say I appreciate your empathy because I know it comes from a place of empathy, right, Like I don't think you're saying like oh poor you, you had such a bad Christmas.

Speaker 3: 1:50:12

I was just thinking about you. You know walking around that park and I will.

Speaker 1: 1:50:16

I know I should rephrase it so that way I can put it in perspective. It was a like come to Jesus moment for me during that. I and I know Billie Jean probably is sick of hearing me say this I reference that as my best Christmas. I reckon I reference that as my favorite Christmas because it felt like I got it and it felt like it clicked and I felt like for the first time in my life it wasn't just like a yes, and this is about Jesus, and Jesus is born. Like it felt like in a moment, like I had to make a decision of like what is it? And I was stuck with myself to decide like OK, what is it. No one else is here to tell me what it is, no one else is here to tell me how to feel. I just needed to decide for myself what is Christmas. Yeah because if it is all about the gifts and stuff, then this sucks right Because I'm alone. But if it's not about that, if it's about something else, then what is it? And I think that's why I think of it as like my best one, because it was a very well, I don't know what's the word for that. Liberating not just liberating, but like it was. It was an epiphany. You know it felt very like the term for when you are educated in growing up. I don't know, it's like it's a term of word Everyone someone's yelling at the radio. It's like coming of age, yeah, but it's a word that describes a coming of age moment and kind of like the idea of like when innocence is lost a little bit. You know, I don't know how to explain it.

Speaker 2: 1:51:44

I'm trying my best here. The words right there the words on there.

Speaker 1: 1:51:47

Someone is yelling it. Email us it, leave it in the comments on YouTube. But anyways, I enjoyed this is a good podcast. Really enjoy having you on, dude. You're a good talker.

Speaker 3: 1:52:00

Thank you.

Speaker 1: 1:52:01

Yeah, I guess you know I don't really have anything else to say. I love my gifts.

Speaker 2: 1:52:08

Yeah, Thanks for that dude.

Speaker 1: 1:52:10

I'm really excited to hang out on the wall. One day people will get a video camera shot of, like the podcast studio. It's kind of cool because we used to decorate the studio. No one has ever seen it Other than. But yeah, I don't know, pat Billy, any kind of sign-offs, anything else you want to say to leave people with?

Speaker 3: 1:52:31

Wow.

Speaker 1: 1:52:32

No pressure.

Speaker 3: 1:52:34

I are you going to do a lonesome Devlin?

Speaker 2: 1:52:36

We're going to do it, lonesome Devlin.

Speaker 3: 1:52:38

That's one of my favorite novels of all time. I actually we talked about this at the baby shower that we sort of became friends at yeah. But yeah, thinking about that, I can't wait, can't wait for that, and I even might have a gift.

Speaker 1: 1:52:57

Oh yeah, for that one. All right, you should come on to Doggier Dialogues and review it with us.

Speaker 3: 1:53:03

Well, we'd love to have you on. Yeah, I mean, that would be sick. I love that, I love that book. So I guess. Stay tuned for that. I will stay tuned for the lonesome Dev yeah.

Speaker 1: 1:53:14

Well, now that we know you're interested in it, we'll. We got one listener who's interested, so we'll crank it out. So we'll get that through, yeah.

Speaker 2: 1:53:20

But my mom was like I'm going to read Blood Meridian and I was like.

Speaker 3: 1:53:23

I was like no, no, no, no.

Speaker 2: 1:53:25

And I told her, I was like, I was like, don't read it, just read Lonesome Dev.

Speaker 3: 1:53:29

Yeah.

Speaker 2: 1:53:30

And then listen, wait for that one.

Speaker 3: 1:53:31

Or all the pretty horses that's like the most consumable Kormak Pukarm yeah.

Speaker 2: 1:53:35

I was like, let's skip that one.

Speaker 1: 1:53:37

My grandfather listed to a part two of our Blood Meridian Doggier Dialogues. He's like I never read that book. Don't feel like I need to, yeah. I was like, yeah, and he's like I really loved your review and I thought you really wanted a good details of the themes and such. I don't think it's a book I need to read.

Speaker 2: 1:53:56

And I was like hey, you know what Pops.

Speaker 1: 1:53:58

I appreciate that.

Speaker 2: 1:53:59

Here's it. Someone who's in the like seasons wise the winter of their life Like you don't need to get into that. Yeah, it's a, it's a. It's a late spring book. Yeah, it's a late spring book for you to go into your falls and winters with, because someone is in. The winters are, like I know, about evil.

Speaker 3: 1:54:16

Yeah.

Speaker 2: 1:54:16

I've seen it, experience and I don't need anything. Yeah, I don't need to know more about it. Yeah, but that's why we're also we're excited to shift to Lonesome Dove. It deals with some heavy topics too, but it's also. It's fun, cowboys, and it's going to be good. It's going to be fun to get into that. It's going to be a two or three part or prior, to get through that whole thing.

Speaker 1: 1:54:36

Honestly, let's just say three parts for now.

Speaker 2: 1:54:38

It's a long book and we're excited for that. It's the new year. I don't have any resolutions, but I'm excited for what the year is going to hold for this podcast and I think we're going to keep growing and we will put out another limited series at some point. We just have to get the guests lined up and then we're going to keep trucking along with dog ear dialogues. You know, I think from what we've heard from you guys, it's enjoyable and it's enjoyable for us to do it. And thanks for sticking with us. If you've made it to this podcast, that's impressive. We've been going for a while and we're going to keep trying to make something that's worth your time. You can check us out on our. We've got a YouTube channel going now. Check us out on YouTube, for sure.

Speaker 1: 1:55:25

That's where we're popping off on YouTube.

Speaker 2: 1:55:26

That's where we're trying to grow and there's a couple areas we can support the show, if you'd like. Merch is coming down the pipeline. We've got some sweet.

Speaker 1: 1:55:35

We don't want beta testing right now.

Speaker 2: 1:55:36

Some sweet concepts and some sweet final stuff that's been produced that we're going to start getting available and to look out for that. That'll be on our website and yeah.

Speaker 1: 1:55:48

Yeah, we don't want to ever half-ass anything.

Speaker 2: 1:55:52

In the words of Ron Swanson you never half-ass anything.

Speaker 1: 1:55:57

Oh, is that what he said?

Speaker 2: 1:55:58

You whole-ass, you, whole-ass it. Yeah, you whole-ass it.

Speaker 1: 1:56:01

Yeah, we just don't ever want to put anything out that we ourselves haven't held in hand. Like the idea of putting out a shirt listed that I've never seen in person just doesn't make sense. So all that's in the pipeline. But anyways, Ken, thanks for joining us. We hope you had a merry Christmas and whatever other holidays you celebrate. I know a lot of our listeners are in India. Yes, Well, we've got a lot of our most regular listeners are out of India, like South Asia, so whatever you guys celebrated whether that's Christmas or not Christmas I hope you had a good holiday with family and stuff, had good times and we look forward to this next year.

Speaker 2: 1:56:40

Till next time.