The Mick and Pat Show: Psychedelic Opera, "Children's" Musicals, Cowboy Lore: A Musical and Literary Dive
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Ever wondered how psychedelic rock opera and classic western novels can shed light on our societal understanding? Well, buckle up for an enthralling journey through music and literature! We deep dive into the intriguing world of The Who's 1969 album Tommy, its psychedelic 1975 movie adaptation, and the thought-provoking themes it explores. From Elton John's unforgettable Pinball Wizard to the satirical depiction of celebrity sponsorship, we break down the elements that make this movie an absolute classic.
But we don't stop there. We're also examining the captivating power of Broadway shows and films like La La Land and Hamilton, and their ability to command the attention of younger audiences. We pull back the curtain on the complex villain Frollo from Disney's The Hunchback of Notre Dame, delving into Victor Hugo's masterful exploration of government, religion, and society. Trust us, you'll want to revisit this movie with a mature perspective to fully appreciate its intricate storyline.
Last, but definitely not least, we pull out our cowboy hats and step into the dusty boots of characters from Larry McMurtry's classic western novel, Lonesome Dove. We discuss its controversial ending, the struggles of the characters, and McMurtry's discontent with its reception. Plus, we explore the legacy of Davey Crockett and the various ideals of manhood as portrayed by Fess Parker, John Wayne, and Billy Bob Thornton. Join us for this captivating discussion about the impact of music and literature on our perception of society!
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Welcome to the making Pat show. Happy to have all of our Ken out there listening and joining in this week. Pat, happy to be here with you, man, me too, me too.
Speaker 2:These headphones make me feel like I'm wearing a little girl's headband, now that my hair is so long, kind of starting to get a little bit of a little girl vibe. You try to look like Aragorn and you just end up looking like a goofball.
Speaker 1:Aragorn doesn't have wavy hair, does he? No, it's just long, you know.
Speaker 2:You're like I'm gonna grow my hair out like that, and then you put on these headphones and just I'll be honest, bro, you're starting to give me a little bit.
Speaker 1:I think if you were clean, shaven, and your hair was a little bit lighter, you're starting to give me the same vibes as the lead singer of the who. Did you ever see their musical, super weird acid trip musical called Tommy? No, I didn't. Oh my gosh dude. So some people out there are having absolute PTSD right now from those crazy horrifying scenes out of that movie. But it was a movie. Let me, I'm just gonna pull it up here because it's real quick. I'm not gonna even bother having Craig pull it up. Tommy was this movie. That was essentially, if I understand it right. Yeah, it's the who's 1969 rock opera. Oh, sorry, no, no, they wrote an album called Tommy in 1969. That was a rock opera and they got it made into a satirical opera, fantasy drama film. I'm just ripping right off of the Wikipedia because this is how they describe it. Because I don't even know how I describe it. It's such a fever dream movie. But essentially Tommy is about this kid in like starts off, 1960s England. It's just so depressing, bro. The way England's portrayed in the 60s and 70s just looks like a regime Doesn't look very fun. But anyways, he walks in on his mom banging Uncle whatever, I can't remember his name. It's not very graphic. It was made for movie theaters and stuff like that. I think it was PG-13 when it got released, but he goes blind, deaf and dumb, like from the shock as a child, and the classic song is like it's Pinball. Wizard, yeah, pinball Wizard, but that's not the who, that's what's his name.
Speaker 2:Ellen John. No, it's the who. Is it? Are you sure? Pinball Wizard? Yeah, did you just look it up? Nope, I did not. That deaf dumb and pine kid Show please. I mean pin. Is that on the Tommy album?
Speaker 1:It is on the Tommy album. Okay album, totally wrong dude. Well, because the lead singer is Ellen John. Ellen John is the lead singer of that song.
Speaker 2:I don't. We might need to check more into this. No, seriously yeah.
Speaker 1:Because that's the whole point is that Ellen John plays this incredible pinball champion. And he's just wrecking people at the pinball championship and Tommy gets up on stage and he's a deaf, dumb, blind kid. He's just blind and smiling and not saying anything and just hitting the pinball paddles and he just schools Ellen John and it like literally kills Ellen John because he's so good at pinball.
Speaker 2:There's a. There's a song by both of them. We need to get to the bottom of this. There's a Elton John Pinball Wizard and the who Did Elton John cover Pinball Wizard. Here we go. The cover was a promotional release for the film in America. Okay, so it was promo for Tommy. This is what it looks like, but yeah, so he's. It's Elton John in the movie.
Speaker 1:It is Elton John in the movie, which makes sense why I thought it was always an Elton John song.
Speaker 2:And then Tommy is dethroning him as the pinball champion.
Speaker 1:Okay, there's all these weird things. The classic line is his mom singing to him Tommy, can you hear me? Tommy, can you see me? And he gets so famous that he starts getting sponsorship deals right, as this dumb and blind kid and one of the big sponsors is like a beans brand. And then there's like a dishwasher detergent brand and it's kind of like. I would say like. I don't know if you could say it's even like anti-capitalism, but it's certainly about like, just like. It definitely struck me as a kid weird of like gosh. It's weird how these celebrities get the weirdest sponsorships from these billion dollar corporations. And there's this whole scene where his mom's having like a whole midlife panic crisis and beans and detergent just start exploding out of the windows and out of the TV and they're a nice, massive, beautiful, glamorous mansion and she's just like swimming around and thrashing around the beans and like it's one of the most insane movies ever seen. This is one where he goes, they take him to like a who played that lady I don't want to say a witch doctor, acid queen Tina Turner was the acid queen in erratic prostitute who deals in prophetic LSD.
Speaker 2:Tina Turner. Like the Tina Turner.
Speaker 1:Yeah, there's like a moment in it where she goes into an iron maiden as it spins around and stuff.
Speaker 2:I hate that thing, yeah, and like that thing.
Speaker 1:It's weird because it's like they I think they put Tommy in it because she's like gonna say like it's gonna inject him with LSD in it or something. It's the weirdest thing, bro. But it's like one of the most phenomenal movies because spoiler alert like the whole movie is worth watching it just for when Tommy comes to he comes out of his deftdom and blind commentos and when he is just running around singing Teenage Wasteland it's the most like absolute crazy hype you've ever seen in a film, because, like, by that point you're so exhausted and the movie just like gives you this like absolute pinnacle and it doesn't even, it's not even clear like how it's really ending. Like did the world end and he's running around in the wasteland. Like with being able to see, speak and sing.
Speaker 2:It's just a standard weird 1970s movie. Yeah, no, it is, bro, like you just see it and you're like man.
Speaker 1:England must have been boring as hell. Like for them to like have to come up with this stuff Like this is crazy fantasy. But all that said, how do we get on this? Because he said I look like Roger Daltry. You do kind of like look like him. If your hair was lighter, like blonde, and you just kept on walking around with the wide-eyed blind kid, look, you would look like him. Look like him, I'll take it.
Speaker 2:It's a compliment, I'll take it. Oh yeah, if I could rip the vocals of that man, I wouldn't be sitting here.
Speaker 1:I mean he has the wavy hair, right, he does yeah.
Speaker 2:He's got that. It's been years since I've seen that movie, the locks that the ladies would kill for. For real, though.
Speaker 1:Yeah, um, anyways, dude. I'm going to watch that now, dude. I would 100% watch that for a bruising review. All right, I love musicals.
Speaker 2:And I love the who.
Speaker 1:I actually don't enjoy musicals that much. There's like only a few that I've felt really moved by A lot of them.
Speaker 2:I just am like I understand this is well done.
Speaker 1:Like I get like from an appreciative point of like the work that goes into this and, like you know, developing it. However, I think I would have preferred to just watch the same story in a normal format, like, uh, I think greatest showman is a great musical, um, and I know that's one that everyone goes to. But there's a reason why and it's, I think, because there's a lot of people like me where, like musicals are, I don't want to pay money to watch a music, I don't want to pay a $20 ticket to watch a musical in a movie theater, right, and then that one comes along and it was like not only did my kids or my date enjoy themselves, but I also enjoyed myself.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, La La Land is even like I accept it's a good movie. I don't think La La Land is like a stupendous movie, Like I don't think. I don't think it's a better musical than greatest showman. Yeah. Um and uh. Gosh, what is a? What's the other big one? Was it ever made into a movie? It was the one that was on Broadway for weeks by Hamilton.
Speaker 2:Yeah, hamilton. I don't know if they ever made it into a movie.
Speaker 1:Like a watch the stage yeah.
Speaker 2:Like you can watch, but I don't think it's made into a feat like a feature film.
Speaker 1:Yeah, um, like I watched in Conta recently, which is definitely more of a musical than it is a Disney movie, like it's not your typical Disney movie with some music pieces Definitely way more musical. Yeah and uh it just I just didn't think it was that good. Like I think I thought the plot was super thin in the songs I thought were okay, but just not everything that it was hyped up to be, because they're like. Lin-Manuel Miranda is doing an animated movie and I just think there is like you know, I don't know, it's one of those things I was like I think the story could have been well. I wish there was a story in the first place.
Speaker 2:Um but I guess I'm pretty cynical when it comes to musicals, cause that movie had nothing on 1990s Disney musicals. No, not even close. And not just. That's not just from a nostalgia point of view, but the. What's funny is that uh and Kanto has a the. The big song from that one is the most streamed song ever.
Speaker 1:We don't talk about Bruno. Yeah, dude, I believe that, because that song was like boiling in my brain for weeks.
Speaker 2:It's super catchy. But also, here's what's like, what I think about it too, though. I'm like if you, if every household had an Amazon Alexa when, in 1998 or whatever, yeah, and uh, once a four year old saw little mermaid, he would. It would be constantly mom, mom, uh, um, you know, under the sea, under the sea. And so I think it's the, I think it's the four year, the like the three to seven year olds, I think, literally drove that song to being like one of the most streamed songs of all time. Yeah, In a short period of time.
Speaker 1:I've also heard that like the ease of just being able to tell Alexa to do something. You probably know more about this pet as someone who actually has children, right, but the idea of like to get the kids attention. You could put on a song very quickly and it's like almost in 10 seconds less hypnotizing to start, like you can do that, and then they start listening. You can pick them up and you can like wrangle them, pivot them.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:You know what I mean. And it's like it's kind of interesting because I've heard that a lot of people did that with. Like the Bruno song was just like yeah, whenever my kids are just out of control and I can't like seem to round them up, I put that song on and I just go room to room where they're singing and I get them and I bring them downstairs to dinner, or just get them to shut up for a second, or I get them to like focus on that thing or stop hitting their brother.
Speaker 2:Oh yeah, no. Yeah, we use the Alexa mostly for that wrangle wrangling.
Speaker 1:It's a good. What's that? What's that called? What's the actual term for a lasso, like when you braid it and you and it's the lariat. Yeah, it's a good lariat, but dude, speaking of Disney musicals there's one that I think is like was a sleeper for a long time because, just of like, it wasn't a crazy big success, I think, when it came out and I think it was a little too scary for a lot of kids that was to probably target at. But I've noticed a lot of like meaning of it recently, really due to I'm trying to think of the best way to send sentiment, send them and them, and them. I'm trying to think of the best way to make the synonymous phrase for what really this trend is amongst single male men. I don't even know. The month of November is special to a lot of men. I think it started out of, I would argue, a group of Christian men that were in college or whatever and they were trying to hold fast to purity, and they created the quick draw name nickname for November as NNN or no, not November. Now I know some of our audience members are female and all that and maybe like haven't heard of this or anything, but it is kind of a it's definitely like a dude terminology for it but you know it's referred to as a month of like discipline oneself to not like look at pornography, not to masturbate or anything like that and don't spank the monkey. Yeah. And it's like I think, from what I the first time I ever heard about it was, amongst other, like Christian guys who were like hey guys this month, like let's all hold each other accountable. You know, let's not like be going out and like hooking up with anyone or let's you know make sure like we're not like. You know, everyone's got like covered in eyes or something supervising their phone, right, and it was great. And then I started hearing it catching on right, and now it's like caught on to like the secular world as a means of like self control and in a in a month of dedicated focus to like take that testosterone reproductive energy and like focus it into other tasks. Yeah, and it's become so funny because, like, at first, like it was kind of a secret, and then now there's like straight up whole, like there's people who dedicated not people, I shouldn't say people there's like streamers and I guess you should say groups of like female YouTubers or whatever that are like they dedicate themselves to trying to make the most like thirst trap video, to like the ideas like we will break these men on God. And. I'm just like this is the worst perversion of something that started out as like well, intense yeah. And like and like. A lot of the guys like I still think, like I'm even if you're not a believer, anytime I could get convinced secular people to like not look at pornography Right I'm a big pro about right. Like I think it's a bad news and so I'm a big fan of like dudes just being like. No, I'm not gonna do it. I'm gonna abstain from all this stuff. I'm like good, because that is that is bad for you. But all that said, there is now a memed video that is being popularized in this and it is the. What is the fryer from Quasimodo, the hunchback of Notre Dame? What is the fryer's name? Do you remember the priest?
Speaker 2:Yeah, Priest or fryer? Wait, the priest or the scary guy?
Speaker 1:No, so Quasimodo. Yeah is the hunchback Yep, and then the villain of the movie you talking about the villain?
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, because the villain, he's like the, he's, yeah, his name's Frollo. There is a yeah, so he's he's. He's not a priest, there is a priest in there, but the, the Frollo's like like in a, in a political seat, and because it's oligarchy, he has power over it.
Speaker 1:Claude frail, frollo, yeah, frollo, gotcha. Okay, it's, this is and this is. You know, this is. Thank you for educating me back, because I have always just referred to him as, like I Can, I describe his outfit. Really, I was like, yeah, he's not a deacon, or like a man, he's not, he's not cardinal, I think, but he's, he's some dude that seems to be spending a lot of time in Notre Dame.
Speaker 2:Yep.
Speaker 1:Do you?
Speaker 2:know what he was or I'm trying to remember. I know he he was a, looking it up and trying to find it to. I think he was basically the, you know, the local governor of the area, or a, because there's there's actual priests in the church, government official, because the government official, because this was written by the same. This was a book written by Victor Hugo, same guy who wrote lame as a Rob, another what has been to turn into great movie, great story and great musical. But and he, victor Hugo, uses a lot of, he likes to really write about government and the and how that relates to religion and then how that also Relates to the common man, and that's, that's the two, that's the big themes, kind of their oh going on in both those lame as a Rob as well as in hunchback in Notre Dame.
Speaker 1:He's a His song, you know, he gets his hellfire, fire, fire.
Speaker 2:So I guess so much a bigger song, dude. He said it was a scary right, this was one of the first movies I went to see in theaters. Oh really, my Nana took me to see it. You know I go Disney movie coming out with a not yeah with it. Not Robin Williams, who's from Seinfeld, george Costanza yeah, what's his name? Whatever you know, he's one of the gargoyles and like whatever it's like you know Disney movie coming out right and so she takes me to see this and yeah, like there's point an oil through the dragon's mouth and like like then, let's say at the hellfire song and there's a Gypsy kind of prostitute woman, like you know, like what I mean? It's like it's intense and it's funny, because before you bring this up, I was about to say you said it's a sleeper and We'll get it all. I'll save that. Go go into the hellfire song.
Speaker 1:I mean, I never know anyone who's like when's. I can't, so I you know in the last ten years of my life, there's been many occasions where someone's like you know let's throw on this Disney movie. Yeah and it's I Always make the case advocate for hercules. I always had became like we could watch that, or we could watch hercules.
Speaker 2:I watched this that this week with my son such a good movie, dude.
Speaker 1:I don't know if there's any other like string sequence, mm-hmm. That gets me more hyped up than like the pinnacle of that movie, like the finale where he's just riding off on. Pegasus uh-huh, but uh anyways. So with that, the whole idea I would say behind it is, like you know this, what's named Frollo, Claude Frollo, mm-hmm. He apparently, like I, did a deep dive back in the movies. Like God, that dude was so scary to me and his these scenes I was watching the like music video. Not the music video, but the scene from the movie where he's singing hellfire, mm-hmm, and there's like the, the ghost of the Cardinals, yeah, like shaming him and judging him and condemning him, yeah, and it's like and it's all in his head of like wrestling back and forth with mm-hmm, this desire, mm-hmm, that is, it's like Esmeralda, desire for. Esmeralda. That is like and he's a narcissist, oh yeah, and he's a narcissist that can't accept that he has now. He doesn't have self control over something, and so he ultimately breaks down Into a guy who is willing to commit, willing to commit sin, murder, mm-hmm in order, because he thinks it's what he needs to do to like, resist temptation of her.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it'd be better to burn her at the stake than to do, than to have this lust for this woman.
Speaker 1:But it's weird because I listened to the whole song and I was like, wow, okay, this is totally like stuff. Like how do they expect kids to understand any of this? Right, you know what this song came up? Because this song is incredibly deep and complex, because at the end of this song, he begs God to have mercy on Esmeralda. For what? Because he's like, have mercy on her because I'm gonna kill her, mm-hmm, but also have mercy on me because I'm gonna kill her, yeah, and it's. And he's like he's aware, he's like these are both sins, yeah, and you shouldn't punish her because I'm going to kill her mm-hmm like you should have mercy on her and forgive her For anything she's done, mm-hmm, because I can't control myself and I'm gonna have to kill her or I'm gonna like lay with her and it's like one of those things I was just like. This is. This is some insane like Character development of a villain because, also like I went back and I was looking earlier, he has a point where he's going over teaching the alphabet to quasi moto Mm-hmm and he uses forgiveness as the word for F. Mm-hmm teaches like and like. So he shows Like he understands what he's supposed to do, bit like Lee, as like every following, like you know, the Christian example of Christ. But he, he just mentally cracks. Maybe that's how he becomes this villain. He cracks under the mental stress of and I imagine you know the truth is like image was probably way bigger of a deal back then then. I think it is today right, like back then, for him to Be seen openly struggling with desires for a gypsy woman Would like he would lose his job and government probably, and he'd probably be cast out of like the church or whatever, which is yeah, I'm not saying any, that's right, right and no, this is on. I'm not saying is that was Mariel Desfault, right, but it is like this thing of like. I think like this is an example of like how insanely terrifying the pressure of like the universal Catholic Church and government was, and like the idea of like the, the fact that the idea would come into someone's mind of like oh gosh, I just can't control my, my sexual desire, so I guess I'll just have to murder them, mm-hmm, and that might be the lesser of two. Forgive me God and forgive them. And I'm just like that's crazy and this is not like. This is not just like a, isn't this guy's crazy? Like I feel like the movie, you know, the writers are like yeah, like Shit was nuts back then. Guys, it was a terrifying time to be alive. Like you know, like this is legit, like how people psyche work and so all that said, I just like went through it. I just thought like man, this guy definitely a bad guy, definitely the villain of the movie, hundred percent, no doubt, but Definitely, I think, a product of the society at the time. A, I would say a perversion of, like you know, the gospel and Christianity, mm-hmm. And like also just a dude who had probably an insanely paint, like it's an unfortunate psychiatric break, mm-hmm. But that song still slaps like a banger dude and I've been singing it in my house to my wife. I told her I was talking to Billy jeed and I showed her that. I showed her the clip. You know, it was like men during NNN, what's what's the mean?
Speaker 2:Is it just what's what's he's?
Speaker 1:singing. So it's him and he's like I can't remember all of it off the top of it, but there's like the part where he is looking into the fire and he pulls out a piece of Esmeralda's like cloak, yeah, or Sash, yeah, and it's like you know this, that translucent lavender fabric that they made for like some. I don't know how they animated it or what color they did, because it's it is unlike any other color in the movie. Mm-hmm you know, in like the way it works is like clearly not the same Transparency as everyone else, is like painting in the movie, right, right, it's like got this translucency to it with stars and he pulls it out. He's like desire and like he's like talking about essentially like how it turned, how like this desire Will throw him into hellfire, right burning within, turning into sin. And I was just like dude it's. I told Billy jeed. I was like I just want you to know, come November I'm gonna, I'm gonna be singing the song non-stop and I'm gonna, like you know, pick up your like sweats. She was like that'll be hilarious I think that's hilarious. I was like don't worry, I'm not partaking in NNN anymore.
Speaker 2:I'm a man, pass, yeah.
Speaker 1:But I just like, for some reason, man, I, just I. It's like you know, there's like a cut. I don't know, musically speaking, you're more musically in touch than I am, but it's like it, crescendos, and I wish we could play it, but Disney would murder us. Yeah, but there's like a crescendo as he is saying this and it's like every time when he beats on, like desire, hellfire Turning into sin, and then the ghosts of the Cardinals come up. It's so brief, but it's like three, like massive, like what do you, what would you call it? Like when it's like a slamming of the keys on the organ and it's multiple notes all at the same time.
Speaker 2:The, it's just.
Speaker 1:I don't know what to call it. Yeah, there's one note.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah. At that point in the song, at that point the song it's just like these, like the dynamics of the song is just built up to where there's these explosive yeah yeah.
Speaker 1:And it's like I feel like when you hear those the first time, you're like he's gone, this man is gone. Yeah, this man's gone, he's over the edge, dude.
Speaker 2:I just want to watch the whole movie again now I think so good, I think any, this movie has to be viewed.
Speaker 1:I don't even think I would have comprehended it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I didn't do it, yeah, like if you it, go watch it through adult eyes now and you will see, like the intense complexities of this whole. I mean we're dealing with race issues, mental health issues, we're dealing with government and religion, we're dealing with Special needs dynamics, we're dealing with Spirituality probably gonna be even I feel like you know. I feel, like it.
Speaker 1:There's no way you can make that without getting like so much like backlash from the public of like. How dare you portray, you know, the gypsy race or ethnicity or society Negatively? Or inaccurately and that's like oh, however, you, how dare you give it a white savior again? How dare you like minimize or To put too much focus on special needs, you know, and it's just like I feel like there's no way to do it again, right, you know? Yeah, especially a live action.
Speaker 2:I would never like live action like Kind of can't do force-gump or whatever, Maybe, like you know that sort of thing or anyways, I think today they're dealing with so many issues and I think that what's why the story it's so good is because it's Victor Hugo man, like his riding, maybe the next.
Speaker 1:Victor Hugo wrote that. Yeah, I missed that when you first said it. I apologize. That's insane.
Speaker 2:So Victor Hugo wrote it. He's the same one who wrote Les Miserables. Yeah, and so he, which is. If you watch it again, the gargoyles names are Victor and Hugo. Yeah, and so the. Anyways. Maybe I've never read it, I've read pieces of it and stuff, but like, maybe I need to, maybe I need to hit a hunchback read the, read the whole thing. It's. It's pretty giant, but I bet it's on. You know our new favorite thing right now, which would be audio book you know, so, speaking of which, you know we're just ripping, rolling out of context.
Speaker 1:Right One thing to the other. I finished the audio book of Lonesome Dove and I, right after that, watched the last episode of its you know, full four part mini series and I think I think the mini series did it better. Really, Like overall, there's definitely things that mini series couldn't fit in right. I wish they would have fit in, or a little bit of pacing issues I had which we should just do a bruise and reviews on, but the book felt almost I don't want to spoil the ending, but it just felt like towards the ending it felt almost unbelievably cynical or gloomy, like it felt like it got out of character and I felt like the ending like especially like the last chapter had more in common with blood meridian than it did with like anything else. You know, like any other Western media I've listened to or read or you know even real accounts of stuff like that I read. I was just like this is this is oddly like pessimistic and not in line with like what I felt like the rest of the story really focused on. And I started reading into stuff, asking it like you know, looking on Reddit and stuff to see like other people's thoughts of the ending and like interpretations. And apparently the author McMurtry, I think, is how you pronounce his last name he wanted Lonesome Dove to dismantle the idea that there was heroes in the Wild West and he was very anti the idea that these people would be seen as heroes or heroic in what they did and he wanted them to be seen as like very great but also like not good men, which I kind of get, because in the beginning of the book, when I was around three, I was like these guys all have like different complexions of things that I disagree or agree with them on Right and there's like I can't think of one person that I'm like 100% a fan of and by the like three quarters in. I'm clearly rooting for them and I care about them and I'm deeply sad and when anyone of their party dies, and I'm like gosh that's awful, but that is the brutality of in the nature of the West, I guess. And there's a lot of cool things you know, like the inconsistencies and character that you know shows fickle men and like these guys who swear to have a code but also kind of struggle to enforce their own code. And then, but apparently he just did not want any of us to see it that way and he was interviewed for a Reddit AMA, which is an Ask Me Anything, and Reddit has this where you know they ask authors, celebrities, anyone really to do an Ask Me Anything. And when was this book written? Roughly, the book was written back in the nine, early 90s, okay, so not, it's not.
Speaker 2:yeah, so not super.
Speaker 1:I mean it's it's all, but it's not like I think he wrote the sequel in 93 or 94. Okay, and so I think the first one was written in like 89. It was not from the 60s.
Speaker 2:No, when the cowboy was on the, it was written in like it was written in.
Speaker 1:It was a huge success. The book exploded in success. Everyone said this is the greatest work of like fiction since the Iliad. And when you actually compare it to the Iliad, it is kind of it is an epic that is very similar to the Odyssey, like when you follow the whole book from beginning 10. But the he was very upset with the way it was received positively in that like it wasn't received as a yeah dude, like the idea of heroic cowboys is garbage and this guy did a good job of dismantling. He was pissed because people were like damn, augustus McCray, you know Woodrow F, call Deets, knew them, some great characters and them some, you know flawed men but damn it, do I appreciate their flaws and like their ability to try to overcome them and struggle with them. And he was so venomous about it. Apparently this came out during the Ask A MA. Is that like he refused to work, incorporate with the vision they had for the TV series? Oh, yeah, because they wanted the TV series to be faithful to the book. But like the way they saw it and like how it was portrayed and angle he thought was going to be too heroic and it is like probably to his original vision. Like you watched the TV series and you're like, yeah, these men got flaws, but like at the end of the day they were good men. And yes, there was issues of getting over their heads with like fantasizing and not being content with what they have, but that's kind of the whole theme of the book is like, don't desire something so much that you aren't considering what you already have, because by the time you get that thing it probably won't be as good as you know, you'll be let down, you'll be disappointed or it'll come at great cost. Yeah, and he was. He was super bitter about it and I was like wondering if I should read the sequel to it. And I found out that he had had a really bad heart attack right after like the movie essentially got made and finished and they didn't give him any credit in the movie Really, like I said, based on the story, but he wasn't a consultant on the film at all. Yeah, and while he was recovering from that heart surgery he was on, like I guess, some pretty serious painkillers or something, but he was like deeply depressed and bitter. And the sequel book that he wrote is insanely grim, has a lot of incontinuities, but like there's characters you loved in the first book that are killed in like a sentence offscreen in that book and it's just like it's callous. And apparently he wrote the whole book while like in a very deep depression, recovering from this heart surgery at like the kitchen counter of a friend who was looking after him, and it was just one of those things that was like it's kind of sad, you know, to find out like a story like that had such a like the creator of it hated it and like hated the attention it got and hated the thing, and it was just like I don't know, man, I don't know what you're hoping for, because you wrote these characters as being very relatable, right, you know, and like. Relatable to the point of like. I relate to where they suck. I wish I did things as grand as they did. You know, I relate to their fickleness and struggling with, like, adhering to their own code that they enforce on others. However, I don't relate because I haven't done the grandiose things they've done, like drive 3000 head of cattle 3000 miles to Montana, through you know, weather and disaster and Indians and bandits. And I'm just like when you create people in fiction that you can, that your readers relate to on, like their flaws and understand their flaws, and then those people go to grandiose things, your readers are going to be like damn, those people are awesome, yeah, and I'm just like what were you? I don't know man, maybe you should have made it just lazier and boring and uglier.
Speaker 2:I don't know what you want, and I mean the. There's a reason that the cowboy caught on to American appeal.
Speaker 1:You know, I mean, it's like, it's like the most a cowboy is more famous than George Washington Right.
Speaker 2:Like yeah, like especially being that, like yeah. I feel like the some of the American ideals are more like rooted in the cowboy, more than like the, the colonial soldier the colonial revolutionary. Right, yeah, I mean, you know just like and there could be a whole conversation around what winning the West looked like and the maybe tragedies of lots of people experienced that, but the also the way that it was painted for us, even growing up for for a long time. The American cowboy while the ideals of the American cowboy are probably never been discovered in one man, they've still been pieces of the that man have been discovered in a lot of men. And so, like the, yeah, the flaws of those men, uh, he was probably trying to show us the flaws of man, and then what he did was actually just make a really relatable character. You know what I mean Like cause, cause, we're all that way. None of us are sheriff Matt Dillon, but we want to be him the guy who always makes the right decision, the guy who always does the right thing, the guy who's always looking out for good.
Speaker 1:The guy who's Matt Dylan. Uh, so the?
Speaker 2:sheriff Matt Dillon is from the one of the longest running TV shows of all time, gunsmoke. And so, um Matt Dillon was the sheriff of a town, gunsmoke, great TV series. If you want to uh watch um uh commercials for diabetes medicine over and over and over again, you can go find that TV show on a West, on the Western channel.
Speaker 1:Well, I was going to say, if I had made one different choice um Saturday when I was driving down to the concert, I would know exactly who that was, cause I have Gunsmoke on audible, Hmm, and I have it, like you know, the first three episodes, cause they were. It was made originally as an audio drama, Okay.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, it started as a radio show and then it turned into a TV show, and I've been meaning to listen to it, so that's ironic that.
Speaker 1:I had made that choice to not listen to it, cause you knew you were to know who Matt Dillon was.
Speaker 2:Yeah, um, because, uh, in the Toby, the great Toby Keith song, uh, should have been a cowboy, it says, but she never. It's more, it's just, sheriff, he's a Marshall, it's a Marshall Dillon. Um, he talks about Marshall Dillon and should have been a cowboy. And the reason why that song relates to a lot of guys is cause you hear that song and you go, you know what, dammit, I wish I had been a cowboy too. You know, riding West to the hills chasing Jesse James, sleeping under the stars. Be in, jesse James, yeah, just all yeah, he called that stuff. You know, and like the lady who lives in town saying like sorry, ma'am, I got work to do and she wants you to marry and settle down, and you're like you know what men got things to do. Men got got evil to fight and uh, maybe someday and some men is rambling ramblers dude. You know rambling rakes, oh yeah, and so there's no. I mean, and maybe it's shifting, maybe I'm an outlier now, like if you polled American men, um, under the age of 35 and said, do you relate to like a cowboy? They'd say no. Okay, maybe now you list out the traits and said, do you relate to this? And I feel like they'd still probably say no. So maybe I'm an outlier, but I don't care. Like the American cowboy just resonates in my soul. Oh yeah. But I'll tell you this Um, my son has been obsessed with Davey Crockett since he went to the Alamo two months ago. Really, really. Today, the quote of the day was God and Davey always keep us safe. And here's the deal. Yeah, Um, that's funny. If you're, if you're a Davey Crockett hater, that's all right. You're just uneducated about it. You should go learn all about his whole entire life. Um, when he was uh indentured at the age of 10, um to go work for a man all the way up to when he fought in wars to when he almost ran for president Um, but guess what? He had a lot of flaws too, like, just like Davey Crockett, a classic American West hero. You know, uh, people want to bag on him a lot. He, the man, had flaws. The man had things about him that weren't right, but I don't care. Like my three year old I have. I have done very little to um to brainwash. Yeah, yeah, I had to brainwash.
Speaker 1:What's the movie where John Wayne plays Davey Crockett? Uh, is it called the LMO? Is it the original LMO?
Speaker 2:Uh no, the first one was Fess Parker and Davey Crockett, king of the Wildfront, here, a three part Disney series, um, and then you had, uh, john Wayne's Davey Crockett, and then you had, um, the, what's his name? Billy Bob Thornton. Yeah, and did one. I've got to warn you, I'm a screamer. Is that what he says?
Speaker 1:Is that what he says at the end?
Speaker 2:before the Mexicans shoot him. Billy Bob Thornton. Yeah. Yeah. So the Billy Bob Thornton one was pretty revisionist. Um, the John Wayne one had, uh, a little more historical accuracy, I mean, I'm saying a little more so actually. And then the Fess Parker one was like, fully, like you know, just the man, the King of the Wildfront to you. I got to watch this because I've never watched it. And so, uh, uh, I got a great podcast series too, on the Bear Grease podcast where it goes through Davey Crockett's life in a four part series. And it really breaks it down for you where they they lay it all out for you his whole life, and listen at the end of it. He's a flawed man and you can respect the hell out of him for who he was. And no, he wasn't perfect, he wasn't. What was it? What is this? I?
Speaker 1:don't know the controversy around David Crockett. So basically, I know he died at the Alamo, he died at the Alamo. I know the joke about him. What's that?
Speaker 2:I'll tell the joke afterwards, all right, all right. So the um, so basically uh, stuff around Davey Crockett would be in the 1950s, when uh, well, I'll back up, I'm going to try to keep this brief the when Davey Crockett was alive, he did a lot of big things, as, as far as he fought in wars, he ran for Congress, he was a Congressman, Um, he almost made a run for president, um. He then also went out and fought at the Alamo and died there. Lots more story happened in there of his life, but those are the big highlights. And during his own life there were auto. He was one of the biggest people, he was one of the. He was the first American celebrity and so, meaning like, there were famous politicians, famous people, people, the people who had name recognition. But he was the first person who, during his like, like during his lifetime, there were fake autobiographies written about him. There was a musical that was made about his life while he was alive. Wow, um, and it was crazy. Tall tales you know of, you know rest wrestling and alligators and and grinning down bears. You don't even need a gun or a knife, you just grin them down and you can kill them with a grin. You know, just, just just old West tall tales. But that was, that was during his lifetime, um, in the early 1800s. And so then you go to um, uh, fast forward to 1950, the resurgence of Davey Crockett's popularity happened in the um Disney, um King of the Wild Frontier three part series that came out on TV back when there was only, you know, a couple of channels on. Everybody saw it and he was also. That was one of the very first like merchandising booms. I mean you could get Davey Crockett guitars, obviously the biggest one, the Coonskin cap. You could get Davey Crockett pocket knives, lunch boxes, uh, little radios. You could get Davey Crockett everything.
Speaker 1:Who was the guy that they had posing as Davey Crockett? And on this merchandise, like I got, I got okay, and he is a.
Speaker 2:He's a good man to look at. He's got a great voice. I'm just going to, I'm just going to look up an image of Fest Park. Yeah, he's a tall man, um, he's got a got a good. Uh, his voice is good to listen. It just is this this Southern cadence is wonderful to hear and, uh, the way he's, uh, he just plays a big man. He also played Daniel Boone, so there's also some crossover there where people confused Daniel Boone and Davey Crockett a lot. That's basically to the mostly to the fact that Fest Barker played both of them in Davey Crockett and then the Daniel Boone TV show. Um, so the controversy around Davey Crockett would be that there's just tons of revisionist history around who he really was celebrating his life.
Speaker 1:But is it like revisionist Cause? It's like, well, it turns out he was really into like rape, like he raped people.
Speaker 2:No, like he did, I think he, I think he did own slaves, Sure, Um, uh, and then he was in the political realm. He was a. He was kind of an entrepreneur businessman who had some deals go wrong and stuff and and the biggest thing lynches around people's hate for Texans and the big, the big, fat deal that I mean Texans love Davey Crockett. He's from Tennessee and we know that, but we love Davey Crockett. He came and fought at the Alamo and saved Texas and people would say that that battle didn't actually matter. Um, it's been revised, that that standoff, you know really big deal is it was and stuff, and so the there's also controversy around. Did he actually die at the Alamo or did he? Was he taken prisoner and then executed? And so anyways, all this stuff around old Davy.
Speaker 1:Is that why you say the other one is revisionist with Billy Bob Thorne is like he dies, executed as a prisoner.
Speaker 2:It's more like just it was still done a long time ago. But you just have more things where they're trying to, instead of just celebrate somebody and make a make a movie, they are trying to get little pokes in it, like you know, and I can't remember any specifics, but I just remember you watch it. It's just a different vibe.
Speaker 1:I just remember that movie being like hyped up when I was in elementary school. Yeah, it was like always being played on TV, like the trailer was. I remember we went and watched it in movies. It wasn't good. It was a boring, boring movie. I felt that was like the first time as a kid I fell asleep in the movie theater.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it wasn't good Little known fact. I have a relative who was, who fought and died at the Alamo. Really, yeah Well dude, I didn't know that. Anyways, I mean I feel a little tied to it personally, I would too. And so, but anyways, I gotta find my dad, I gotta get on that, I get on that.
Speaker 1:Hey, you don't ever know. I think my dad died at the Alamo. Just kidding, that's my new bid is like I have to say and this is super popular, I guess Maybe.
Speaker 2:I've told me not to make this.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I was just like I was like honey, what if I just started like every time someone brings up a tragedy, I just started saying my dad died in it. Yeah, Like what are they? What are they going to do? Be like wow, that's awful, I'm so sorry. Be like well, I don't know for sure.
Speaker 2:There's, there's a chance.
Speaker 1:There's, but there's a chance he could have died in it.
Speaker 2:The amount of ice and refrigeration effort that would have taken to get that sample to the year you know of whatever, 1990, whatever.
Speaker 1:That would not happen. Hey, when was the Alamo? Quick, quick question. Um dang bro, you should be ashamed 80, 1980, 1880, sorry, 1818.
Speaker 2:Not 1880, anything. It was pre-civil war. Pre-civil war 1830, post 1800, somewhere in there.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, get clapped bro.
Speaker 2:Sorry, I should know. No, I don't know why I should know, but uh, anyways, was there a point to all that I forgot? I started talking about old Davey Crockett. I just didn't know what the I didn't know there was any like like a conjecture or like.
Speaker 1:I didn't know like it wasn't politically correct to be a fan of David Crockett. I've always been a fan of Davey Crockett because I remember when my I refer to her as Aunt Sherry Uh, she's not really related to me, but uh, she was visiting us out in Colorado when I was a really little kid again elementary school and all my like, my mom and all of my uncles and their friends and stuff would sit in the backyard around the fire pit and just you know, drink, bear and chill and talk, and I'd just be out there sometimes hanging out, but then I go back inside to like play with toys and I come out and check on and then I go back inside, right, I remember one time I came out and she told me this joke and she made my name the main character name, which is why I remember it. I think so well. So, well, but are you familiar of the ghost of Abel Fable story? I don't know that. I am, bro dude. This will seriously, if you tell a story to a kid and you like squeeze it in that they're the character they will always remember. David Crockett and Abel. Fable. But Abel Fable was a miserable old man who was always worried that someone would break into his house and steal all his money. Each night, before he would go to sleep, he would lock his wallet up and I was safe, located near his bed so that if anyone were to try to rob him, they would have to wake him up to do it. Unfortunately, on the night that Abel died, he had only placed the wallet on the table near the safe without locking it up. Before his death, abel said to his family and friends that none of them were to touch his home or his money, and he said that anyone who came near his safe and wallet would be greeted by his ghosts and scared away. Following Abel's death, the family decided that the money in the Fable house was not doing any good if not used, so they went into the home to get it. Abel's oldest son and this is where you start using other kids' names, and you know so like you'd insert, like Drandle, yeah, you're like your kid's friend's name, or like you're a different sibling of the kid right Decided to make the first attempt. You opened the door and went in. You saw Abel's wallet on the table and reach for it Immediately you hear her to voice say I'm the ghost of Abel Fable Put the money back on the table. The voice scared the son so much that he ran out of the room and out the door screaming. I heard the voice of a ghost. The oldest daughter, and disbelief, decided she would make her way into Abel's room. She entered and reached out for the wallet when she heard the voice say I'm the ghost of Abel Fable Put the money back on the table. The daughter was so scared that she dropped the wallet and ran from the room screaming. I heard the voice of the ghost. The youngest son decided to make his attempt at getting the money. When he entered the room and reached for the wallet, he also heard the voice say I'm the ghost of Abel Fable Put the money back on the table. Back on the table, the youngest son, having wised up over his other siblings, decided that he was not so easily scared and said back well, I'm the ghost of Davey Crockett and I say the money is going in my pocket. So I've always remembered Davey Crockett, dude, I've always just remembered that jacket.
Speaker 2:If you want to scare somebody off, you'd be the ghost of old Davey.
Speaker 1:Also, for some reason that just stayed with me and whenever I saw like I just always thought about that story as a kid. When I saw my mom's like wall on the table, I was like don't worry, yeah.
Speaker 2:Abel Fable is going to get you.
Speaker 1:But one note I want to say. I guess there's two things. Point of Cowboys I remember also the mythology of the cowboy, growing up as a kid not entirely into it until I started watching Westerns, and I think some of the first Westerns I saw was like open range, and really the only thing I remember for that movie is Kevin Costner and Robert Duvall's final gunfight in the end of the movie where they're just taking on a bunch of bad Cowboys not necessarily bandits, but corrupt Cowboys and a corrupt sheriff. And I think it's Robert Duvall, but he has a side by side double barrel 10 gauge, oh yeah. And he like lays on the ground and he sees these banditos coming down the alleyway through the planks with this early morning light shining through the planks of the barn. He's like in the barn, in the hay, and he lays down and he just waits as they're getting at the side of the door and he pulls a trigger and it cuts to the dude on the other side of the barn door and there's clearly, like you know, some kind of rope around him because it yanks him 10 feet against the other building and he slams down dead and I was like, damn, this is awesome.
Speaker 2:Cowboys are cool.
Speaker 1:They're like stuntman laying it all out and I just really got into him, and I remember, though, the movie that gave me like a really weird wakeup call that they're like Cowboys are the myth of the Cowboys, not real man. Cowboys were humans. Cowboys were fallible men who are imperfect, and even though they did big things, especially bigger things than anyone thought could be done during their time, they could die, and they weren't always the hero in the movie. That taught me that was the movie the Cowboys.
Speaker 2:Oh, dude, I love the movie. The Cowboys, the movie the Cowboys.
Speaker 1:If you watch, like if, if you haven't watched it, watch it, it probably won't hit as hard as if you were nine oh yeah, for sure. For sure. But like the movie the Cowboys, essentially is just like every young boy's dream. Oh, I wanted me and mentored by John Wayne himself. Yeah, and you're like gosh, john Wayne is a mean son of a bitch, but then, like he dies for you, yeah, I'll do everything in my power to avenge this man even if. I'm just a boy, Dude, I got water. I was just thinking about it.
Speaker 2:Dude, the Cowboys man, tell me, you did a cry when John Wayne died. I don't know that I cried or not, but I do.
Speaker 1:But here's the deal I do know that like sitting on the carpet and leaning forward it, like grabbing the carpet with my fingers. It just be like.
Speaker 2:It just got you, it's got you dude.
Speaker 1:Oh, so bad, it was so bad. So bad to psyche there, oh man.
Speaker 2:And, oh man, I love that movie. That movie. Who? Anybody, any young man who watched that movie? Yeah, just wanted to be one of those boys. I haven't watched it since I was like in middle school. Even if you're one of the ones who gets trampled in the stampede like I, still want to be there.
Speaker 1:That was also like a rude wake up call to me, when the one was like the first time a kid died in a cowboy movie. Yeah, and one that she's like it wasn't just like oh, he's sick yeah. It's like what A cowboy. He told me a kid my age would get killed by the horses. Made me help, gave me a healthy fear of horses. Oh yeah, dude the.
Speaker 2:It's a. It's such a good movie and I I need to go watch it again. It's not it. For the longest time I've been trying to watch a movie. It hasn't been on any streaming service, so I'm just going to go buy myself a DVD of it.
Speaker 1:Damn bro.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:I don't even have a DVD player, I have. My computer has no.
Speaker 2:Port memory disk anymore.
Speaker 1:OK, my other thing though, my favorite Mexican American 18 hundreds movie. Mm, hmm. It's called raveness with Guy Pierce.
Speaker 2:And I've seen that.
Speaker 1:I'm explain just the idea of it. It's a horror movie, but it's a very unique horror movie, because it's kind of a black comedy in that it's like supposed to be horror but they're supposed to be a little bit of comedy to it. You know, it's supposed to be like very dark humor, mm hmm, but the idea is that this guy you know who Guy Pierce is right, yeah, so Guy Pierce plays second lieutenant John Boyd, strong name for weak man. John Boyd is currently serving in the United States Army during the Mexican American War and when he finds his courage failing him in battle, he plays dead as his whole unit is massacred. However, his body is thrown in with the dead in a cart and hauled behind Mexican lines. And this is like the first weird part. Like you're not entirely sure what the movie's telling you, because it all takes place kind of after all these events, mm hmm, like you barely get any time in the beginning spending time with it, but it seems like the blood of his dead comrades is like you know, he's in this corpse wagon and then he gets some of the blood in his mouth and he's so injured and weak that he drinks the blood of all these dead men. Oh my God, as it's like you know, because he's just like in the wagon and all these bodies are on top of him and he can't really move. And while he's in this wagon he has the opportunity to pretty much capture this command post and he slaughters and takes a bunch of Mexicans hostage.
Speaker 2:There's an anaconda.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and his heroism right, mm hmm. Arons him this promotion but essentially the general sees through and is like I know you're a coward and you'll get your award, but you're going out far, far west where life is going to be way worse for you. And they sent him out to this Fort Spencer, which is a remote military outpost in the Sierra Nevada commanded by essentially just like the armies odd folk, Like most of the people, when he gets there like have no sense of like really keeping in dress and uniform.
Speaker 2:There's like an island of misfit toys.
Speaker 1:Oh yeah, oh yeah, and while he's out there, essentially they get word of these. You know these, not pilgrims technically, but settlers moving out west and as the winter comes in there's rumors of cannibalism and stuff. And he knows, he knows like he's like trying to recover, but there's a part of them who knows like he's like cannibalism is power, like I taste like the blood of men, gave me power to like kill a dozen Mexicans and like singlehandedly and like, but he's, you could tell there's like a lot of shame for his cowardness and stuff like that. So he's not like trying to go out and do it again. But essentially what they incur is that like there is a man somewhere here who's known as the Wendigo, which is the Native American folklore of a cannibal, and like when a man, when someone becomes a cannibal, the spirit of the Wendigo enters them and turns them into something horrible. And the idea is that, like this man played by Robert Carlisle, who does an insanely good job, he, he is the Wendigo in this movie and he's just this man that he can't be killed because he eats man. And not only that, he knows he has like the ability to identify someone else who's like tasted it, you know, had a glimpse of it and it's pretty cool because, like Guy Pearce, does a really good job of being repulsed by anything that resembles like blood and meat and playing a coward Like he's not a war hero. Like he does. He's not a good fighter, he doesn't rise to the occasion and in the opening scene everyone's celebrating their victory at this. You know, in the Mexican American war, whatever the battle victory was, they're celebrating by a bunch of Texas stakes and it's like the way the movie focuses on them, like just cutting and eating the steak, like bite after bite off the fork and chewing on it, and like how it's like bloody raw steak.
Speaker 2:It kind of makes you like understand, like he's repulsed by it, like he doesn't have a desire for it, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it really does. Like you're watching, you're like, okay, like I want to eat some broccoli, it's directed by, I think, a Spanish woman and Tonya Bird, but I think I remember reading that she is a vegetarian or vegan and she wanted to make people repulsed. But that's not like the main message of the movie. It's not veganism, but anyways, it's really well done and it takes place at such a unique time in American history that, like it was, it was a very well fitting movie and it's. It's one of those movies that, like I've shown a lot of people, a lot of people will have been like wow, that was a good movie. Definitely not my favorite, because that was unsettling, but oddly enough, I enjoyed it and I kind of think it was kind of funny and I feel weird that I laughed at some things, but also kind of scary. So it's a really good movie. I think it's great. I would love to do a bruise and reviews on it Because there's a lot of like various great like scenes and conversations and themes throughout it. But anyways, those are my two points, just on the on the Cowboys Mexican American.
Speaker 2:War.
Speaker 1:David Crockett stuff. Yeah great great films, you know, in theme of the make it pass you up for people to touch up on.
Speaker 2:For sure, for sure, and I think that the way that because going back to Lonesome Dove and kind of that, ending where he was trying to kind of show the, the fallibility of man and that you know, men really aren't heroes, it's interesting because there's a he's a Texan to men.
Speaker 1:Mercury is yeah, and it's weird. A lot of people think he was hurt by like someone who was believed to be like, like, like someone hurt him really bad. That had an an aura of Texan masculinity, because he's he was bitter to the day he died about it. And like each iterate, like each story that came after Lonesome Dove was worse and worse, and like the fans were like this is not as good. There's so many inconsistencies. It's like you didn't even care to reread and go over his own established facts and narratives.
Speaker 2:He was just trying to shove, like the the thought down your throat and not make a make, a make a story.
Speaker 1:Yeah, a lot of people thought it was a cash grab, but I was like I don't think it was man, I think I think it was. He was pissed, desperate, he was bitter and he was like I hate that people idolize this dude. I made who I hate.
Speaker 2:Right, yeah, and the. I think that it's interesting because, looking at it kind of through an ecclesiastical view of like mankind right. Topical right. So, like the, what's the point of our existence? It just kind of I feel like right now. I think if you interviewed any anybody throughout all of history, they could always feel like it was a world that was in chaos and evil things were on the rise or whatever. But the, the, the meaninglessness of your existence, is something that's very easy to to take you into a dark place, and I think that what I see in a lot of people who want to tear down, like the, the American cowboy and the ideals of those things they found themselves in, this place of intense meaninglessness and the we we have to get to a place where we're okay with not being perfect, and we have to get to a place where we're okay with other people not being perfect and the mankind as a whole. We're facing a lot of scary big things going on and then feeling like somebody in the middle of it who can't make a difference in it, and the cowboy can always make a difference in it. You know, and I think that some of the ideals of the cowboy are things worth holding on to and things worth instilling in yourself and things worth trying to emulate, because doing the right thing, just because it's the right thing, is good, and even though you know you're a man who falls to his own flesh and bone, just like at the beginning of this when we were talking about you know no, not November these things where we're talking about a man who Frollo, this guy who is a man in power, who's trying to. He's obviously become evil, but he's at the same time wrestling with his own humanity in himself. And to view that through an adult lens that's more gray and has more spectrum than just black and white. We can identify ourselves with the Frollo's of the world and with the Davy Crockett's of the world, and we can slip into both of those spots. Or we can slip into I'd say we can slip into compromise and caving to our flesh and blood, but at the same time, too, we can also rise to the occasion, and I feel like a lot of times we're being told that it just doesn't matter whether you rise to the occasion or whether you just slide down to your flesh and bone.
Speaker 1:So I mean, I think I think that's a good point because I'm glad you kind of brought it around. I wasn't really thinking about it, but I think, if one, I don't think the book would have been able to be dearly as long. But if the McMurtry had written characters that were Frollo Frollo, he would have achieved what he set out to do. But what he ended up doing, I think, was the opposite. You know, essentially, I don't know, I don't want to spoil anything because I want people, I don't want people to be disinterested from reading the book because I spoil something that happens late in it. But it's just one of those things is like you didn't write a villain, he did write a villain. I mean, Blue Duck is a villain, the probably main antagonist for most of the book, as well as the Suggs brothers as the antagonist for another portion of the book. But they're clearly villains. They've given in by how despicable they are.
Speaker 2:Yeah, they've given into their fully. They're just the. They've decided to sell their soul and go full flesh and blood, whereas the other guys they're battling their flesh and blood and they are flawed, you know, and that's why we love them, I think you know. But so, yeah, because he did write in these villains and he wrote in these people who had no regard for human life or kept nothing sacred, where the other guys were like kind of like how a lot of guys start to feel as you become an adult, as you become a, you know, as you hit kind of 27 on in your journey through life, you start to see the world in a way. That's like you know, I think that the black and whiteness of just good and evil is really hard to decipher. Yeah, and there's actually a whole lot more to everything going on around me, with seven billion other people just like me walk in the world and so you have a. But yeah, he wrote. He wrote these guys who they were still fighting for something good and for an ideal that they want to do achieve.
Speaker 1:Yeah, no, I agree, and I don't know I don't really have any much more to add on it, because I want to wait till you read the book and then we can or listen to it, and then we can like just go in and go in heavy on it, because there are, without a doubt, things that make me disappointed in the choices characters made, but those don't detract from them being still good people in my eyes. You know what I? mean, I think the biggest thing is like, probably debatably, here's the hot take, not a spoiler, but a hot take. Right, lorena is conjectured to be the main character of Lonesome Dove. Actually, by the end of it A lot of people have said said the prostitute, she is the prostitute and that perhaps she is the protagonist and by the end of it. I mean, she's gone from being a whore a prostitute, and I say whore just because that's how they refer to her. They never call her prostitute and she's beloved and cherished and protected because people almost view her as a delicate and innocent, almost in the way she's handling trauma, and I think that is a success to his writing of like. You've made someone who most of the world would like turn to the eye to and like or look down their nose at. You've made them someone who's like, a character that's celebrated. You didn't really do anything different with the other characters either Like, the other main protagonists. All you've kind of done the same thing, like people who have flaws but like are still celebrated. That's just the way he's written stuff. So I don't know, but pretty good stuff, I like it. I don't want to take up too much time because I know this is already. We're already going along in the tooth and we got other things we can discuss. So I think this is actually probably a good place to leave off, because I think we're verging very closely on me breaking and saying something that would be in spoilers for Lonesome Dove or any of those other kind of works that we're discussing. But big, what would you say? Promotional, I don't know. No, that's not the word. We're big fans at the Make a Past show of classic cowboy mythology and real life characters and in that we also are big fans of great villains and great heroes. I think it is. I think it's actually harder to write a good villain than it is a good hero, and I appreciate when people are able to do that. And Quasimodo, a hunchback of Noverdame if you haven't watched it, give it a watch again. Watch it through the eyes of an adult, where I'm going to do it, and then also I'm going to read it now because I didn't even know it was based off of an original book by Victor Hugo, so I'll definitely give it a read. And Cowboys the Cowboys specifically, I think there's three movies called Cowboys the Cowboys, with John Wayne in it. Give it a watch. Debate on letting your kids watch it, because they'll probably want to be a cowboy. And what's the other one?
Speaker 2:I guess the Davy Crockett three-part series you said yeah, it's funny that that one, if you're an adult, it's too late. It's too late, I mean watch it. It's slow, it's weird, but show it to a seven-year-old, let them enjoy it. They'll rock their world. And you know what we? Also, we don't shy away from the fact or ignore that when we talk about the mythology of the cowboy, it is that it is mythology in a lot of ways. It's something worth striving towards, it's something worth wanting to become, and maybe even the mythology of the cowboy has some evaluation, needs to be done to it, and we don't shy away from the fact that men are men, human are human, and hurt has been done from all sides to all people, and I think that's kind of what we're talking about here. But I don't think that every kid needs to watch some John Wayne movies. Oh, yeah. I think it'd be good for America.
Speaker 1:Well, no doubt you know, I'm not saying John Wayne's a perfect guy, but I'm saying his movies are great and there's a lot of different characters he portrays.
Speaker 2:Oh yeah, oh yeah.
Speaker 1:Indeed, and if more people knew how to say pilgrim, I'd appreciate it.
Speaker 2:Oh yeah, yeah, howdy pilgrim.
Speaker 1:Again, thanks for joining us on the Mickey Pat Show. Hope this conversation was interesting to you and you enjoyed it. Definitely keep in touch and be following us as we get more things ripping and rolling. You know YouTube video and website, of course, always on the way. Got merch in the process as well. So thanks for joining us before we talk into you all next time.
Speaker 2:Until next time.