Dog-Eared Dialogues - East of Eden Part 3

Transcript

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Yo Ken, welcome to the Mickey Pat Show Dog Ear Dialogues.

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Part three of East of Eden.

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Thanks for joining us.

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We appreciate you for joining in and hopefully you are enjoying East of Eden if you're kind of reading along with it before listening to these parts.

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And yeah, we really hope you're getting a lot out of the conversation here.

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We certainly are enjoying it.

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I've pretty much basically listened to the book a second time at this point, just going through it again to make sure I keep a correlation of you know chapter summaries and timeline order, and it's nice because Billie Jean's been listening to it too.

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The only issue is that when your spouse is consuming something you enjoy so much after you did it, if they're not equally enthusiastic, it can be painful.

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Is she somewhat enthusiastic.

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She thinks she kind of burned out she's like, oh no, it's a good book, great, but the thing she keeps saying is like it's a good book, I don't think it's life-changing.

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I'm like just give it a, give it some time, okay, and I get it.

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I don't think chapter one is life-changing or not.

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Chapter one, part one.

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I don't think part two is life-changing.

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Yeah, I do think part three is where I was starting to like really grapple with things, yeah, and like, especially, just like reflecting on mortality and you know how you love your loved ones, how you leave them what your legacy is.

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Yep, and I think that the I don't know if you can relate to this, but as a kid driving around with my dad in the car Okay, yeah, I know, sorry in the car Okay, yeah, I know Sorry.

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There was.

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Oh hey, he'd put on the talk radio Mm and I was like whether it was sports or news.

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I was just like this is wretched yeah.

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Dude talk radio as a kid was so awful so I have zero interest in this at all.

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And now I'm a 30 something year old man.

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Listen to podcasts, just listening to people, yeah, like it's like talk radio on crack.

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It's just hours upon hours of just talking and talking, and talking, talking, yeah, and then I'll turn on the old rock station, the old country station.

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I'm like not feeling it.

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I go back to the talkers, yeah.

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And so I think what I'm getting at here is it may in somewhat depend on the stage of life you're in and what you're thinking and what you're going through, that this book affects you.

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I also truly think that this is one's going to catch me a flag.

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I think that, not as a generality, but just as a experience statement I'm not saying men experience more trauma than women or anything like that, but I do think that I've experienced more, perhaps like Kathy's and Charles, and my wife has, I think Billy, and I think Billy Jean would not see that as like a challenge statement, because she knows, like the jobs I've worked and the people I've hung around and stuff in, like all that, and so I think like perhaps, maybe like a little bit of it might be too of like I don't know if my wife has ever struggled with Tim Scholl, to be honest, like I don't, man, I think my wife might be Aaron has ever struggled with Tim Scholl.

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To be honest, like I don't.

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Yeah, I think my wife might be Aaron.

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Yeah, you know what I mean.

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Like or yeah, she's just good.

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Yeah, and she can't really.

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Like I don't know if she's ever really wrestled with the concept of not choosing to not sin the Almayest.

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You know what I mean.

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Like Mae Swindew, she likes to do whatever the rule is.

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She enjoys doing the rule does she not enjoy it when you're not doing the rules exactly?

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oh, that's crazy, because that's billy jean.

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Billy jean's like we should just do the rules.

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The rules are the best option.

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But going for it and then like if I'm like rules smooth, she's like we're not having fun.

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I'm not having fun and we're breaking the rules.

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Yep, yep.

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And so that's why, like my wife, like never got spanked, or and or like disciplined.

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You didn't have to, she was like what's the program?

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I'm doing it.

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And that's you know, and that's why you married him.

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It's probably a better.

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That's the best wife you could hope for.

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It's a smoother way through the place.

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Do you really want a rebellious wife who is constantly questioning the order of operations and why we do things?

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No, I don't, but I was the one who, like when my mom said we're standing on the curb, she said do not step one foot in the street.

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Yeah, I was like three and a half.

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I stared her down in the eyes and I just tapped my toe on the street and put it back on the curb.

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What would you do if one of your boys did that to you?

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Man?

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Well, I would suppress a grin.

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Yeah.

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I'd fake a cough and suppress a grin and a little chuckle and then, depending on my mood, I would either gently explain to them why daddy says to not put your foot in the road, because I care about them and love them.

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Or I'd say what the hell and I would slap their hand or give them a thump right in the road because I care about them and love them.

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Or I'd say what the hell?

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And I would slap their hand or give them a thump right in the noggin Thump with the finger, not a fist thump.

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Like a dog flick, yeah, dog flick, the dog flick comes in handy.

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But so all that to say, yeah, that first reaction is what I would shoot for, but the second reaction could be also what comes out of me.

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In my own efforts to choose one way or the other.

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Well, all I said, thanks for joining us.

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We are drinking some beer.

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Tree of Knowledge.

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It is an unfiltered DDH DIPA which is what again, Pat?

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It's not an illegal drug.

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It stands for unfiltered double dry hop.

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Double dry hopped IPA.

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Double dry hopped.

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What's the other D?

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Double dry hopped DDH.

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I don't know what that I don't know the Deepa.

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D-i-p-a.

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Is it a misprint?

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I don't think it's a misprint, man, I think it.

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I bet it's just like unfiltered double dry, hopped dry IPA.

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You know what I mean?

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Yeah, or double.

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Or maybe it's like a.

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Double, IPA.

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It's a double dry hopped and then it's supposed to be a deeper double IPA.

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To their credit, you know and we're not reviewing beers on this, but to their credit.

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I did say it tastes like pineapple and they said think juicy pineapple, ripe papaya and peach nectar.

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Yeah.

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I think they kind of hit it All right.

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Props to you guys.

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Tree of knowledge, I'm not giving you thumbs up or anything like that right now.

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That's a different segment, Pat.

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There's really not too many new characters in the corner, but we for the first time get some real, like actual, I guess you could say development.

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It's like Aaron and Cal are introduced for the first time you know what I mean.

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Like they now have dialogue and personalities.

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Exactly, and the last in the end of part two.

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They're basically just babies, toddlers and they and when we find them here, you know as we go through part three they are.

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You know, we first see them kind of probably at this, like I think it's like this 10 to 12 year old stage.

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You know we first see them kind of probably at this, like I think it's like this 10 to 12 year old stage.

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You know, young boys.

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I think they said they were 11 years old, yeah, and so you know this, which is a great age of boys.

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That's why I remember, like being a boy.

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It talks about a rabbit.

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It gives a great example of them out rabbit hunting, and I think about this with, like me and my buddies or my cousin growing up like this is that's the time of life and, like you have some freedom for the first time and that's also when you kind of start learning about the world.

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Yeah, you know you start because you're hearing what the kid up the street says from his older brother, these things, whatever it is like, and you're developing thoughts on your own.

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You have to defend yourself on your own or you have to do, um, you know, navigate the world on your own.

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And so that's kind of where we intersect the Trask boys beginning to navigate the world on their own.

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And and Aaron and Cal are really depicted in very, very similarly to you know, um, excuse me, to Adam andles and, uh, you know in there and how they are as people.

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You know aaron is described as handsome, good natured, morally upstanding, and he's a little naive too, I think.

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And and cows um kind of manipulative worldly knows what's going on, maybe street smart kid, um, a little bit conniving and and, like you know, he's kind of always making a plan, making his neck making moves.

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He's making moves.

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He's cunning like his mother dude.

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Yeah, just like kathy and but he's also protective of aaron as well, um, and so we've seen this, or seeing them develop as you, you know, this next generation of Cain and Abel.

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Just curious for you is there anything in Aaron, at least from what we you know know about so far in the book?

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Is there any part of Aaron?

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You see that's not Adam, I think the Like it almost seems to me like Aaron is just Adam to his core and Cal is Charles and Kathy.

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You know what I mean.

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Like characteristically.

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Yeah, I think that Aaron does have some of his.

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He differs from Adam in that, like Adam is just, adam's big downfall is his passivity and.

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Aaron's downfall is his naivety.

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Yeah, sure, like you know, just so, there's just different sides of a coin there and so they do.

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They are their own.

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You know he doesn't write them as just a mirrored image, you know, and they do have their own Like.

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When I think of them, I think of like distinctive characters between Adam and Aaron, not just like clone copies, almost.

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I think of like this distinctive characters between Adam and Aaron, not just like clone copies, almost, cause there are little.

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There are little like interactions throughout where you see how they are their own person.

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Sure, yeah, I can see it.

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Um, you know, uh, some other characters.

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That uh new character coming in is Abra and she is she's the same age as Aaron and Cal and uh, and she is the daughter of a local businessman.

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But she's kind of portrayed as a little bit wise, beyond her years or mature, just in the way that she understands, she speaks more like an adult, she has a handle on the situation, situation I think there's even like a line of uh kind of like meta level dialogue of just like, as young girls tend to, they mature and desire to be adults sooner than boys, and it's like she definitely sees these boys, recognizes they don't have a mother and immediately sees an opportunity to be like what young girls seek to be, and all young girls that I can think of when I was 11 or 12, no 11 or 12-year-old girl wanted to be an 11 or 12-year-old girl Right Like the petty boy things going on.

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She's just so above it.

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They either always wanted to be your girlfriend, your mom, your sister.

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They never wanted to be a little girl.

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You know what I mean.

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Like that's just how I think about like all of the girls I remember being friends with.

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Then you know, and Abra, clearly, here is like she's ready to be the mom to these boys, definitely, and you know, and we'll see her biggest development in this story really comes in.

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You know, part four, oh yeah, as she continues on in this story really comes in you know part four.

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Oh yeah, as she continues on in this story and we get to see also some other characters who had mentioned before.

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They're now adults, which is the Hamilton children and the main.

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There's really three that I think are mainly focused on in part three, which is we have Tom and he's a lot like sam.

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He's almost, you know he's, he thinks like sam, he's always.

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Well, he's the one working with sam, and and uh, he's, he's an inventive, dreamer, creative type um.

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But he isn't sam hamilton all the way yeah, he's like he's just sam's messiest parts.

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But none of sam's like, uh, none of sam's duckish behavior, right, and I mean that in like uh, tom can't let things go right and I think also he like he's, he's sam hamilton if sam didn't have perspective on the world, because Sam has this like broad, vast perspective and a worldview that really ascends, but, like Tom, is kind of down-focused, you know, like knows in it, and so he can't rise above or get away from it.

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And whenever Sam was talking about Tom, he talks about these things, you know, and he makes reference to his concerns for Tom.

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It is interesting that they, like several times in this part like I don't remember them saying it in any of the other parts but they talk about they say Samuel Hamilton was a beautiful man and what Tom lacked was Samuel's beauty.

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And I can't think I'm like.

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I don't know if they mean that just like, physically, like Samuel Hamilton was this, you know, burly bearded, tawny skinned, just handsome as hell, farmer, irish man that just had an elegance to him and the way he just carried through life, through life.

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Or if they mean like the beauty of like, the like samuel's mind right to like, have these super complicated like philosophies that he can simply just let go and like the self-awareness of like, you know, when he always says like you know, I only feel myself becoming more irish when I get invited to talk right, and that he's like, and then he warns someone he's like, careful, now I could figure myself turning irish, you know.

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And so I kind of like, I think like I don't know what that, like what they meant by that, but I don't know, do you feel like you got like?

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What do you kind of think when they reference the two in comparison?

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yeah, I agree, because I think I do kind of see also like this is maybe like an extreme example, but like take a guy who's just like well-rounded renaissance man, he can, he can garden and play some music, but he can also like fix anything and just like he's he's got, he's jovial, but then his he's got the son who's kind of like in the basement, who's like the emo kid, who's like he's like doing a lot of art.

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You know, yeah, exactly like he's down there, like in the basement, like, but he's also like you know, he's he, he, he's an artist in his own right type of thing.

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But you know, he's not really that as fun to be around, or like he just doesn't have that it thing.

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And and you know, that's kind of a little bit where I see here that like just, uh, he just he's the incomplete version of it and he's his own self, because I think he's also he's a, he's a bit of a tortured soul and, like I was saying how Sam references, I forget the exact quote that Sam says.

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He says, you know things along the line of like you know, if Tom heard about this, he'd be mulling it over for years.

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Or like like he'd be trapped in a river, like he's not going to be able to get out of this or he's, you know he kind of spins out and so, um, the and I think, a lot of, I think I've seen other, I've seen guys like this.

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I picture guys like this who do like come up in their father's footsteps and then in some ways never get out from out of their father's shadow.

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And to be like the son of a great man can be a difficult thing if you're, you know, like you want to be great, so you just be like your dad, but then you never get to be who you are.

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You never get to be you, you know in that sense.

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And so there's some of that going on here with Tom, and we'll get into that as his story unfolds.

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And then there's also Will, and he's just Will is a wheeler, dealer, entrepreneur, and he's also.

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He's the realist.

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People bring business ideas to him and he'll just tell you straight up, right away, he'll say that's trash, that's a bad idea.

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Will's a.

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This is the song I thought of when I was listening to the section for Will.

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It was just you know, you hear like he's the dude slinging cars, has comfy furniture to make people at ease with the you know idea of how much money they're about to spend.

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I just think, like Paula, Jacques, Paula, 44 inches on Paula, you know what I mean.

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Yeah, yeah, and it's like that's Will, 100% Like so wrapped up that he can't even like take time to mourn his dead dad Right, and he is also that same type of guy you're singing about, like nobody knows how rich he is or not, he's a hustler baby.

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Yeah, because nobody.

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It's like there's people in the world too where you know, like you have you got your social media clout guys, where it's like, yeah, they got three lamborghinis, but they're probably not wealthy, exactly yeah but then you've got like then there's other guys who are just like.

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There's there's we see, we, you see, you see those other people in the world too.

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You just like see that guy and you're like he's got the toyota sequoia yeah, but he's also like got like 50 bitcoin, yeah, exactly, or yeah or, but like, or even like a guy who's just like, but just, he's not flaunting, whatever.

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You're like, that guy's rich, I know that guy's rich with.

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When it comes to will, we're like we have no idea, but he's got the ideas he's because we also hear in this book too, or there's whether he's going to a meeting or not, he always tells people he's got somewhere to be and then he'll just go around the corner of the coffee shop and sit there for a few hours, as if to leave everybody in mystery of you know what's he got going on.

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He's got something going on.

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He's in the mix.

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You know he knows the next thing coming, and so that's who will is.

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And, um, he also brings a little bit of a voice of reason to the family as well, like, uh, he does have good, um, kind of feet on the ground.

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Hey, this is.

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You know, if you're just, if we're getting away from all these deep thoughts and things, you can go hang out and behind the barn with lee and sam and drink whiskey and talk about stuff that may or may or may not exist, but, like, I can tell you, like real world.

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Here's the deal yeah, he's definitely comes off to me as like if samuel lost all of his dreamer abilities and just his and just became that solely entrepreneurial farmer.

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Right like he, he patented the right inventions.

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He made people pay him up front for work that would get done eventually and made sure that, like all the work he agreed to do would be work that came with like dividends down the road of like oh hey, like I need you to work on this fence again.

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I need you know what I mean, stuff like that yeah and he's just.

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He's just all of those pieces of samuel and he is the kid too who's like, sees his dad and knows what he doesn't want to want yeah, out of it and he doesn't take, which is sad, you know.

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Like you know what I mean.

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Like the, the like you can tell he he says it.

00:19:28.289 --> 00:19:40.683
I don't know if he says it here in part four, right, but like will has that comment about how, like you know, look what all those ideas got them pretty much like got him and my brother tom like didn't do anything for him.

00:19:40.884 --> 00:19:58.032
Yeah, like that, that dreaming um but anyways, yeah, and then we have also, uh, desi um is the daughter of sam and she's just this content pleasant person.

00:19:58.032 --> 00:20:00.362
She lives in town, she makes, she sews dresses.

00:20:01.442 --> 00:20:09.455
She doesn't even really make make money doing it 10 months in advance, though, like people have to order dresses or 20 months in advance, they have to order dresses.

00:20:09.619 --> 00:20:14.825
So at the peak of her business, you know she's like she's the it thing, she's the thing in town, but also she's.

00:20:14.825 --> 00:20:18.480
You know she's not even in it for the dresses as much as she's in it.

00:20:18.480 --> 00:20:23.930
She just wants a bunch of people coming by every day and sitting to talk and like be together.

00:20:23.930 --> 00:20:25.152
Yeah, and so she's this.

00:20:25.152 --> 00:20:26.934
You know people want to be around her and she's.

00:20:26.934 --> 00:20:28.586
She brings, like this, life and joy.

00:20:28.586 --> 00:20:31.267
She's the social part of Sam.

00:20:31.949 --> 00:20:32.730
Yeah, you know what I mean.

00:20:32.730 --> 00:20:37.352
They have like only Sam's social stuff was channeled, funneled down.

00:20:38.080 --> 00:20:38.965
To her for sure.

00:20:38.965 --> 00:20:54.083
And then we get into like kind of the opposite of this Desi, which is the daughter Una, and get into like kind of the opposite of this desi, which is the daughter una, and she's kind of she's briefly described, you know, and she's kind of just like a semi-dark or brooding character they say she's not pretty.

00:20:54.625 --> 00:21:31.064
Yeah, they say like she's got pretty hands and pretty feet so, uh, um, she, you know the, and she passes, like she's spoken of, and then she passes away yeah, she dies almost immediately upon like getting any idea of who she was and what she meant to samuel and, and we may talk about it more, but you know, as desi may be, the be the social side of Samuel I think Uno was the private side of Samuel there is a for any.

00:21:31.846 --> 00:21:36.433
I think this rings true for just lots of humans who can hit the really high highs.

00:21:36.433 --> 00:21:38.887
Those are the humans who also can hit the really low lows.

00:21:38.887 --> 00:21:45.823
You know the guy who's the I see this a lot with, like my buddies who struggled with depression and stuff, like lots of those guys.

00:21:45.823 --> 00:21:49.152
When they're in a social circle, they're typically the life of the party.

00:21:49.152 --> 00:22:09.601
You know also, it's like they've got these, these high highs, low lows, his.

00:22:09.601 --> 00:22:10.363
You know his struggles, his.

00:22:10.383 --> 00:22:13.173
You know his thought life, his, um, his doubts, or you know the things that we wrestle with in life.

00:22:13.173 --> 00:22:28.803
And so that's where you know the and we'll get into it is how, like, when she passed away, it was a real loss for samuel, um, and you know that that's really the characters who come on the scene here and the other characters are pretty well set on their paths.

00:22:28.803 --> 00:23:02.614
Um, who we've talked about, um, and so, yeah, the and, as you know, and we've characterized to in a in a more broad perspective, we're looking at you know, you have the trask family and the hamilton family, and and while they are in some ways mirrored to each other as far as they're not necessarily mirrored they're almost different sides of a pendulum in their origins and who they come from we see them in part three all start to have to deal with the choice.

00:23:03.140 --> 00:23:04.506
And we're going to talk about the choice more.

00:23:09.819 --> 00:23:11.306
Yeah, yeah, deal with the choice and we're gonna talk about the choice more.

00:23:11.306 --> 00:23:32.876
Yeah, yeah, so, um, the kind of summary for part three, right, is like first time in the book really, that like death is introduced, um, as like a forefront problem and, uh, with the concept of know immortality through the pieces we leave behind, you know who we are after our death goes on to have profound impacts on others and like their psyche.

00:23:32.876 --> 00:23:54.949
And this ultimate theme of Timshel, which is a Hebrew word which is translated here in Steinbeck's text as meaning thou mayest, in reference to thou mayest, choose to overcome sin, thou mayest choose to sin or not.

00:23:54.949 --> 00:24:20.067
It's introduced in a very philosophical discussion between Lee, samuel and Adam and in it the following chapters after it's introduced, we kind of just get like back to back to back to back to back examples of Timshel and it feels very to me, it feels very like intentional, like Steinbeck really wanted to be, like here's the core thing.

00:24:20.067 --> 00:24:46.394
And here are, like you know, 10 or 15 examples across a whole spectrum of characters and stories where thou mayest sin or not, thou mayest choose to sin, thou mayest choose not to, and, uh, this concept, true power, and like, uh, the like lee's allusion to.

00:24:46.394 --> 00:24:55.067
Like you know, this choice uh elevates man to the position of god, like the.

00:24:55.067 --> 00:25:11.328
The opportunity to choose to sin or not is essentially the opportunity to choose fate and to choose destiny itself, and it, it, you know, gives us the capacity of being absolute good in spite of the opportunity to do absolute evil.

00:25:11.328 --> 00:25:19.161
Um, and I think that's a, it's a really beautiful part, and like, of course, uh Steinbeck's main theme for the, for the book as a whole.

00:25:19.221 --> 00:25:28.054
But, um, hopping on into it, um, I think, uh, chapter 24, um, hopping on into it, um, I think uh, chapter 24, this is a good place to kind of focus.

00:25:28.054 --> 00:25:58.314
Um, aaron and Cal are these young boys, now they're 11, and uh, samuel Hamilton is accepting that he is old, um, and it is the death of Una that we see age him, you know, he receives word that Una dies and with it, a part of his spirit died, and he continually confides in Tom, telling Tom, like you know, you have to kind of confront these things and work through them.

00:25:58.314 --> 00:26:15.633
And it says, though, but like Samuel never got back to who he was before that, but like Samuel never got back to who he was before that and that like all of his children saw and realized when they came to see him for Thanksgiving that he had like aged severely and they're like what happened while we were gone living our lives?

00:26:15.633 --> 00:26:17.314
You know what happened to dad?

00:26:17.314 --> 00:26:19.576
Dad can't die, that's not possible.

00:26:19.576 --> 00:26:32.393
Samuel can't die and Tom, like lets it know, is like well, like una's death is what took a piece of him away and it's broken his spirit to a degree in which, like, he won't be able to bounce back.

00:26:33.675 --> 00:26:58.277
Um, and I think like that in of itself is interesting because, like I feel like I've seen that, especially among the elders in my life, you know, when I think about my grandparents or other people's grandparents and stuff like that and like, dude, the death of a kid, just like you know it radically, I think, changes uh, a parent, especially at that age's ability to like just be in good health.

00:26:59.098 --> 00:27:29.117
And it's not even like a mental thing, like I'm not saying like they're always depressed or anything, I'm just talking like dude, I really do feel like my grandmother's condition after my uncle's uh death, like right during covid, I really do feel like my, my grandma's health really started like not, I mean, she lived, you know, till 2023, but like it was still like right after that is like when I feel like it started getting worse and worse and worse and she never really recovered out of that um you know where.

00:27:29.117 --> 00:27:42.143
Because, like where prior to that event she had like being cancer and stuff like that, just like a few months before and was like on an upward spin right, and so it's just one of those things of like, yeah, like I get what they're saying, you know this image that you have.

00:27:42.143 --> 00:27:43.145
And I didn't think like I get what they're saying.

00:27:43.145 --> 00:27:43.826
You know this image that you have.

00:27:43.826 --> 00:27:48.319
And I didn't think like I didn't pity my grandmother, you know I didn't be like, oh, my grandmother, she's in this funk.

00:27:49.582 --> 00:27:53.571
I thought she was a very jovial, happy, strong woman.

00:27:53.571 --> 00:27:54.865
I still thought that.

00:27:54.865 --> 00:28:02.153
But I really just do think like the idea of this you know death and how we have to confront death with our loved ones.

00:28:02.153 --> 00:28:17.845
When it occurs, it really does chip a piece of you away and at a certain point in age, I really just don't think physically you bounce back from those deaths yeah, and there's supposed to be something psychological there too, where it's just like it's you.

00:28:18.025 --> 00:28:22.333
You never spend any time thinking about how your children are gonna die.

00:28:22.333 --> 00:28:29.667
Like you do have worries for your kids, but like sure, like as a kid, you eventually realize people die.

00:28:29.667 --> 00:28:31.880
People, typically older, die.

00:28:31.880 --> 00:28:37.008
So like I'm starting to process and deal with the fact that my parents will die someday.

00:28:37.008 --> 00:28:38.830
Right, there's like a, there's a.

00:28:39.731 --> 00:28:56.585
Usually, you know it's not, usually there's a long buildup to to that and like like a long processing and like, okay, then it happens and it's still hard then, but then, yeah, the uh, you know there's like there's no placeholder in your psyche for, really, that it's actually just your worst fears coming true, the worst from the time they're born.

00:28:56.585 --> 00:29:01.084
That's like your worst fear is like the death of a kid and you don't, you don't have a.

00:29:01.084 --> 00:29:04.991
It's only filed in that, that place in your brain.

00:29:04.991 --> 00:29:07.604
That is the, the worst outcome.

00:29:07.604 --> 00:29:14.627
And then for it to happen, whether you know at any point in your life to outlive your kids, is that the thing that changes you?

00:29:14.627 --> 00:29:30.674
And it's interesting too, like, and then even I've seen it happen to people too, even when it's not with, uh, the death of a kid or or anything in particular, but like just weird, when all of a sudden you do come to visit and all of a sudden they're old you know, it's like, it's like well, how, how did that happen?

00:29:30.900 --> 00:29:31.785
yeah, you know, and that's what.

00:29:31.785 --> 00:29:35.941
That's what these kids are, his, the sam's kids are struck with when they come to visit just this.

00:29:35.941 --> 00:29:42.068
What happened to my, to the, to the guy, this immortal man?

00:29:42.088 --> 00:30:16.506
yeah, that was life you know, uh, literally physical life incarnated, right, you know he's, he's this, you know, borderline, mythical man in the way his family themselves view him, um, but yeah, so, um, it's after that that, like uh, samuel accepts that it's time to hang up the good old farming hat and him and Liza agree to go visit their kids post Thanksgiving, because they get a letter saying hey, you know, mom, dad, how about you?

00:30:16.506 --> 00:30:18.790
Come on a vacation and come stay with us for a while?

00:30:18.971 --> 00:30:19.232
Yeah.

00:30:19.779 --> 00:30:29.733
Which I find really interesting, because that concept of grandma, grandpa, coming to visit and not working anymore is not a death sentence, right?

00:30:29.733 --> 00:30:49.540
But like I guess back then, like you know the concept of like, oh, if I stopped working and I go on vacation, it's going to take, you know, two weeks to get there, and then we'll be there for probably like three weeks and it'll be a hard journey to go back, but then the other kids are going to want us to come visit, so we'll probably be gone for like four years.

00:30:49.721 --> 00:30:50.824
Yeah, you know what I mean?

00:30:50.844 --> 00:31:00.541
it's like yeah it's like I guess I understand, like it's a way different concept today versus then because even like the, the reality of the time it took to do such a thing, oh yeah.

00:31:00.622 --> 00:31:16.788
But then also like I don't like when my grandpa sold his business, like he really struggled, like really yeah, like when he finally, like he had retired, but then he'd still like he owned some property, like he owed, he was a landlord to a couple like of like of his restaurants.

00:31:16.788 --> 00:31:19.167
He'd sold, he owned, he had still owned the properties.

00:31:19.167 --> 00:31:27.460
And then when he finally like and he was always, he was like like Sam Hamilton, always having ideas and things and working on something.

00:31:27.460 --> 00:31:40.313
He's always sketching out a new design on a napkin and working towards something Like you know, working towards something as a man had a vision for his life in the future and all of a sudden, just to hang it up and there's no, there's no, nothing.

00:31:41.342 --> 00:31:43.489
He just hung it all everything up at once.

00:31:43.640 --> 00:31:46.186
I mean essentially, like when he hung up the final thing.

00:31:46.186 --> 00:32:15.167
Sure, you know, like the final thing, the one that had been, you know, when he hung up the final thing, it was just like you're accepting the fact that you're like I'm just now here till I die right that's so strange, and so it is like for a man like sam hamilton, who's like driven visionary, to now have there's no like, even if it's all pretend in a sense like your future visions and your plans and all the stuff you're going to do, but it's getting wrapped up and you're

00:32:15.188 --> 00:32:30.392
like, and then I think what happens to people is they all of a sudden go, they turn, they get into their eighties and they go, they look back on their life and they say that all that all happened a little faster than I expected and now I'm, I'm done, like it's done, and so it's a.

00:32:30.392 --> 00:32:33.163
It's a really hard thing to to go through.

00:32:33.163 --> 00:32:35.288
That's where and it's funny too, where sam is still.

00:32:35.288 --> 00:32:38.465
He's not like an invalid, he's coherent enough to know what his kids are doing.

00:32:38.465 --> 00:32:44.645
Oh yeah, and and you see that with, like you know, it's like he's coy, yeah, he just goes, he just pretends, he just goes along with it.

00:32:44.645 --> 00:32:48.351
He's like all right, like yeah, okay, I'll come visit.

00:32:48.351 --> 00:32:52.924
Yeah, but in himself he knows the decision he's made yeah, he knows.

00:32:53.065 --> 00:32:54.549
And like he says, I know where I'm going.

00:32:55.031 --> 00:33:27.982
Yeah, um, which I just think is interesting because, like my grandfather has gone and visited so many dying men and women who were like on their deathbed and stuff, and there were dudes that he was hanging out and doing life with up until the day they died Right, and it would be like you know, sometimes they knew they were going to die for months, you know whether it was like diabetes or cancer, and so I guess I've just never really thought like there's been that many people I've encountered through like the you know older people in my life that have really just hung up the hat.

00:33:28.002 --> 00:33:40.423
You know, like my grandfather he retired from work back in his 60s but like he keeps himself busy with like meeting up with dudes and like doing, you know, just faith-based stuff, you know, meeting up with people going on to conferences.

00:33:40.423 --> 00:33:45.652
I just really can't imagine him like not driving to go meet someone.

00:33:45.652 --> 00:33:46.953
You know what I mean.

00:33:46.953 --> 00:33:51.605
Right, Like for coffee or something I just talk about, like how they're doing in their walk with God or whatever you know.

00:33:51.605 --> 00:34:08.123
And I think, like I think, even if I don't know, I just genuinely believe like even if it was going to kill him, he'd still just be like, well, I'd rather die in my truck driving to meet someone than just like give meeting up with people right, which I get you know, I mean like, like.

00:34:08.202 --> 00:34:11.661
Can you imagine a day in your life where you just give up meeting up with people?

00:34:12.423 --> 00:35:03.094
right, I'd be like no, like I don't you know, and I think that's where, like where you know, it's just the uh I think it's a different time right, you know, I mean like a different concept, time wise, but for sure, um, anyways, all that said it, he, he is saying his goodbyes to his friends and he saves going to adam for last um, and it's he's been a couple months since he last visited adam and he says, you know, it's described like adam is still like, even though adam had this moment where he's you know, he named the boys and he moved on with life, like he still has not moved on from the pain of losing, losing Kathy, and Samuel knows it, and like Lee knows it, and Sam kind of like has this dread about him of like going to visit Adam because he knows who Adam is now.

00:35:03.094 --> 00:35:10.266
Like going to visit adam because he knows who adam is now.

00:35:10.266 --> 00:35:23.385
Um, but in this moment, like adam does say, like you know, you being here and knowing this is goodbye, like has brought me, kind of like woken me up a little bit, and they start sitting and talking and then you know adam's like lee, you know, grab the tea because we're clearly gonna have a convo.

00:35:23.385 --> 00:35:45.335
Sam stay for dinner, right, and they, uh, they get onto this topic, um, of like something profound that lee has discovered that he wanted to share with samuel, and uh, lee goes into this uh discussion about how he was looking into these two translations of this of the Bible.

00:35:46.360 --> 00:35:55.190
And one was a command of God to Cain, to it was a command to essentially like overcome sin.

00:35:55.190 --> 00:36:01.807
A command like you will overcome sin, like there is no option, you have to do this.

00:36:01.807 --> 00:36:05.429
And the other one was like a promise.

00:36:05.429 --> 00:36:10.989
And it was like promised, like I promise, uh, you will win over sin.

00:36:10.989 --> 00:36:18.036
And even though it's not a command on the individual, it is a there is no choice, right, it is a promise from god yeah, and what.

00:36:18.117 --> 00:36:23.268
And one being you like must, yeah, like like one, this is like you, you must know.

00:36:23.309 --> 00:37:27.686
And being like yeah, that in that other sense, and so it was binary in the two, two translations and then you know, uh, lee is talking with, like his more uh, like chinese philosopher family members and uh, they get into like trying to make sense of this, this phrase, and the different translations, so much that they go and learn Hebrew and they talk about, and Lee talks about how like funny this concept is of like these old wise Chinese philosophers learning Hebrew and then painting Hebrew in like essentially like Cantonese, like methodology of like up to down and like left to right, right, and uh, he's just like, can you imagine that, like me and these three old Chinese men learning Hebrew and painting with you know ink and brush Chinese, uh, not Chinese, but Hebrew characters, and they invite um a uh rabbi out to help them understand it in this Jewish scholar to help them understand.

00:37:27.686 --> 00:37:52.907
Eventually they all settle on this interpretation of this word, which is interpreted different ways in scripture, but it's, it's Timshel, and they settled on the translation that Timshel means not you must or you will, but thou mayest, you may overcome sin, you may rule over sin.

00:37:52.907 --> 00:38:04.135
And the whole quote here that I really like from Lee is but the Hebrew word, the word Timshel, thou mayest, that gives a choice.

00:38:04.135 --> 00:38:09.405
It might be the most important word in the world that says the way is open.

00:38:09.405 --> 00:38:11.289
That throws it right back on man.

00:38:11.289 --> 00:38:26.052
Why that makes a man great, that gives him stature with the gods, for in his weakness and his filth and his murder of his brother, he has still the great choice he can choose his course and fight it through and win.

00:38:27.702 --> 00:38:43.981
Um, and this is the crux of the whole whole novel, I think, uh, thematically, is that, um, no matter what evil a man does, a human does right, not just man, but like no matter what evil humans do, they have a choice.

00:38:43.981 --> 00:38:49.139
Um, and I think it's kind of like the point of like humans do they have a choice, and I think it's kind of like the point of like emphasizing Kathy's not a human.

00:38:49.139 --> 00:38:51.907
There will never be a cat choice for Kathy.

00:38:51.907 --> 00:38:55.188
Kathy can never, can never choose to overcome sin.

00:38:55.188 --> 00:39:09.644
But every other characters demonstrated to be shown like they have a choice and that choice is the choice to choose their destiny, essentially like to choose if they will be good or if they will be evil.

00:39:10.646 --> 00:39:24.268
Um and uh, I do want to say this every where I've looked online, every jewish scholar and biblical scholar has said like this is an incorrect, correct interpretation of this hebrew word.

00:39:24.268 --> 00:39:25.871
This is not what the hebrew word means.

00:39:25.871 --> 00:39:40.842
A lot of people have conceded like yeah, like you could theoretically say, just like how you could say like um, you know you can rephrase anything right to kind of mean one thing or another, like thou mayest the.

00:39:40.842 --> 00:40:10.086
It's not a far stretch from the literal translation of how the word is used in Hebrew, but the word in Hebrew really pretty much is like a 100% confidence case of this will occur and it is usually used in the form of a command Like this will be done, and it's used in the 100, 100, absolute right, right.

00:40:10.086 --> 00:40:11.693
So all that said, uh, steinbeck did reach out to jewish scholars.

00:40:11.713 --> 00:40:14.606
He did go back and forth with them and he did believe like in the conversations and stuff like that.

00:40:14.606 --> 00:40:22.070
When he was writing the book he was like hey, I think we have enough of a case here to make it this and he.

00:40:22.070 --> 00:40:33.163
There's even letters you can read online where steinbeck's like thou mayest disagree, like you know what I mean and like it's just kind of a joke, but like he was clearly aware that, like he was stretching it here.

00:40:33.163 --> 00:40:51.065
But it's the crux of the story and the truth is is like I think, if I think, if steinbeck had been a little bit more versed and just verses in the Bible, right, he would have seen, like that there were other verses that could kind of support this idea.

00:40:51.646 --> 00:40:56.880
Right, like that we have the choice to sin or not.

00:40:56.880 --> 00:41:04.860
Right, and it's not a new thing to I think you or I right, I think, like you and I are both very familiar with this concept as Christians and believers.

00:41:04.860 --> 00:41:05.130
Like, yes, I think you were right.

00:41:05.130 --> 00:41:06.356
Right, I think, like you and I are both very familiar with this concept as Christian.

00:41:06.356 --> 00:41:06.844
Like in believers.

00:41:06.844 --> 00:41:09.050
Like yes, I do have a choice.

00:41:09.050 --> 00:41:12.489
I don't think God predestined me to sin or not sin.

00:41:12.489 --> 00:41:17.570
Right, like, I think it's my choice if I it's my choice if I swear, it's my choice.

00:41:17.570 --> 00:41:19.601
If I get angry, it's my choice.

00:41:19.601 --> 00:41:21.101
If I lust, it's whatever.

00:41:21.101 --> 00:41:26.065
Right, it's also my choice if I find victory in those things and choose not to do them.

00:41:26.425 --> 00:41:28.748
Right, because this is a commentary on the free will of man.

00:41:28.927 --> 00:41:34.293
Yeah, exactly, which might have been more debatable, I guess, back then.

00:41:34.293 --> 00:41:44.317
I mean, it's still a debate now, but maybe it was more debated amongst theological circles, right?

00:41:44.317 --> 00:42:13.902
All that said, though, the beauty is that we see this emphasized over and over again in these following chapters in many different ways, and I think it's like very the sentiment, is very sincere in how Tim Schill like there's not an example of Tim Schill in this book that I feel is cheap or shallow, and with that the rest of the conversation just to kind of hit on these other things that recur.

00:42:13.902 --> 00:42:31.036
You know, samuel essentially confronts Adam and says, like, tells Adam, you know, from a place of experience and empathy, that, like, the best way to move on and to let go of these bad memories or these fabricated fictional memories, is to replace them with the good ones.

00:42:31.036 --> 00:42:48.422
Um, even if the good memories are fabricated, um, like whatever like, but you have to let go of the pain, you have to let go of the loss, and you have to accept, like the natural human process is for memories and new experiences to replace old ones.

00:42:49.864 --> 00:43:00.371
Um, and that the issue with holding onto this figment or fantasy of a loved one after they are gone, whether they died or whether you lost them because they left.

00:43:00.371 --> 00:43:07.043
You is a is a very dangerous thing and it's actually like, it's like a sin, the way Samuel describes it.

00:43:07.043 --> 00:43:09.813
You know he says I can see it in you.

00:43:09.813 --> 00:43:11.157
You have you hold on to her.

00:43:11.157 --> 00:43:14.166
Still, she comes to you in the night and Adam's like getting angry.

00:43:14.166 --> 00:43:16.411
He's like what do you, what do you know?

00:43:16.411 --> 00:43:17.420
Like, get away from me.

00:43:17.420 --> 00:43:22.532
He's like I know it because God blessed me and like God blessed my wife.

00:43:22.532 --> 00:43:32.396
But it's not fair to Liza how she's come to me in the nights and she is not Liza, right, it's whoever this loss was before he came to America.

00:43:32.396 --> 00:43:39.594
And it's like, and I've prayed and I've wished that Liza had her own imaginary like partner come to her.

00:43:39.594 --> 00:43:52.956
But I know it's not true and I know she's only to me and I know it's unfair that I I still have this fabricated um, imagine imagination, fantasy about who she would be here now with me and it's like.

00:43:54.001 --> 00:44:01.041
It is very interesting because most people, I think, just freely fantasize and they don't think at all about like.

00:44:01.041 --> 00:44:03.030
Is that even a good thing to do?

00:44:03.030 --> 00:44:08.284
Like, is it a good thing to be nostalgic and fantastical in your memories of a loved one.

00:44:08.284 --> 00:44:21.847
Um, maybe sometimes it is harmless, right to have a little bit of nostalgia and focus on things, but it does prevent you from being present with your current loved ones, right, and it I think it can make you resentful.

00:44:21.847 --> 00:44:26.735
Um, but, uh, what are your kind of, your thoughts on that?

00:44:26.735 --> 00:44:33.543
You know, in that kind of back and forth argument cause I think it comes up later on a couple of times too, but I'm just curious to it's like what are your thoughts on?

00:44:33.563 --> 00:44:52.713
like that, that, uh, postulation, you know, I think that the cause, you know I, and it never is spelled out for us what Samuel's, you know, like past is, but we get little hints at it and it kind of suggests that he had his own Kathy, of sorts.

00:44:53.253 --> 00:44:59.498
It was either Kathy or like another just woman who died over there or something.

00:45:00.000 --> 00:45:00.260
You know what?

00:45:00.280 --> 00:45:02.579
I mean, it's hard to tell if she left him, or if she died, right.

00:45:02.920 --> 00:45:23.590
And so then the because in his, because I feel like a big part of Samuel's you know connection to Adam for himself is seeing himself in Adam and literally these little parts of it and saying like, is being able to say I've been through this before and I can help you.

00:45:24.110 --> 00:45:31.164
And so the we get a little bit of you know samuel's past revealed here even further.

00:45:31.425 --> 00:45:55.201
And I think that it is dangerous to you know, play out too many things in your mind of what could have been, you know, and like the word fantasizing has been like, very like sexually hijacked, right, you know, and and and and Samuel is speaking to that in this case as well.

00:45:55.201 --> 00:46:04.860
But also there's like, but he's not just being that, he's speaking also to just, you know, the what could have been the one who got away, what would my life be like now if I had done this, that or the other?

00:46:04.860 --> 00:46:26.583
And I think lots of people struggle with that and you know, thinking about, you know, I think that can be deadly to a marriage, deadly to a marriage and deadly to just a man's soul, like to be like even you know, oh, I should have, you know, you know, like one very common one.

00:46:26.583 --> 00:46:32.405
Lots of guys hold on to you talk to like a 80 year old guy who's like I regret I never served in the military oh sure, yeah, you know like that one's, that's like.

00:46:32.425 --> 00:46:37.304
You know, like that one, that one like is like things like that, you know I think of where my life could be.

00:46:37.304 --> 00:46:54.052
Or you know, man, I just regretting, you know, and you can even in some cases, like, as you find yourself getting into, like, as a marriage progresses and a family grows and you've now like lost all of your autonomy as a man.

00:46:54.052 --> 00:47:07.789
You're like there's a, there's a thing for you to fantasize, just like I just want, like, just like I want to just be a bar hopping on my motorcycle riding, riding through the night, you know, just like.

00:47:07.809 --> 00:47:12.483
You know, like the flicking cigarettes or whatever like that, Like you can have these like sort of like.

00:47:12.764 --> 00:47:13.867
I want to be lonely.

00:47:13.927 --> 00:47:15.592
Yeah, exactly Exactly.

00:47:15.592 --> 00:47:22.052
You know it's like, and and that's the part of fantasizing, is that it is fantasy.

00:47:22.360 --> 00:47:22.561
Yeah.

00:47:22.702 --> 00:47:24.829
It's like, and so you take the good part, like you.

00:47:25.009 --> 00:48:12.184
You have these what could have been, what's not, and then like to your joke just now, which is like ultimately, that's not what you want ultimately, that man's crying alone in a cockroach yeah, in a motel exactly, feeling guilt about leaving his children no, yeah exactly, or having never had any of that yeah and we'll see regrets like that in other characters as we get like part four and like the um, this whole concept of Timshel too, I think, like, while you were saying that the, the translation has been stretched in this particular verse, I think that it is the, the condition of man and his free will and his manifest destiny, you know, part of that too, is like there's, there's, you know, destiny is just there's nothing you can do about it.

00:48:12.184 --> 00:48:13.188
That's what you're destined for.

00:48:13.188 --> 00:48:20.411
Yeah, manifest destiny is a potential future that you have to get to.

00:48:20.411 --> 00:48:28.224
Yeah, and you know, and manifest destiny being, like you know, a common theme in of writers in this time too.

00:48:28.224 --> 00:48:33.965
So you know, and this, and obviously that's like a whole whatever you know, take your junior year lit class.

00:48:33.985 --> 00:48:54.943
You talk about that for, like, you know, for 18 weeks, but sure, the we get into this thing where they're calling the choice temporal, this thing that is, you know you have to choose and like, just like how samuel chose to make his life um a one way and will is choosing to make his life another way.

00:48:54.943 --> 00:49:04.815
You know, like, we have these, these choices that that come up and the and it's, it's, and it goes beyond good and evil into.

00:49:04.815 --> 00:49:16.900
Also, just like you have the free will to choose your life, because um steinbeck, throughout the book, has also been speaking of you know these past times, these future times that we're moving into or out of, and you have characters like will, who is.

00:49:16.900 --> 00:49:20.568
You know, um, who's going after making the money.

00:49:20.869 --> 00:50:16.931
And then you have guys like samuel who's going after making a living you know, and that's a concept we'll get heavily into in part four is this thing that is, you know, uh you know you can, you know, make, make money, or you can make a make living or make a life, you know type of thing, and so, um, the the Timshel concept has been running through this entire book so far, and if you go for a reread you'll pick up on it throughout the first two parts, but then it's in part three that it's revealed more clearly to us and we get to see it throughout the rest of the story yeah, and I think you know to anyone out there who's not a believer or whatever, or I don't know um, I do think like not again, this is not me trying to like recruit anyone, but like, if you want to understand christianity, this is christianity and I think it's very like.

00:50:17.253 --> 00:50:29.135
Closest core is like a lot of people I know get wrapped up in a lot of other stuff, but like I think the big, like the clearest argument for like Christianity and like what it believes is like you have a choice.

00:50:29.135 --> 00:50:35.833
You can choose to accept like, like you can choose to accept forgiveness.

00:50:35.833 --> 00:50:42.193
You can choose to accept excuse me, you know Jesus as your Lord and Savior or you can choose not to.

00:50:42.193 --> 00:50:47.134
But there is no like you go to hell because like, there's no like I'm.

00:50:47.134 --> 00:50:49.742
I know there's a lot of philosophies here, right, but I'm not saying like.

00:50:49.742 --> 00:50:53.885
What I'm saying is it's not like you go to hell regardless of what you want to do.

00:50:53.885 --> 00:50:57.329
You don't go to hell regardless of what you want to do.

00:50:57.329 --> 00:51:05.326
I don't like I'm, I'm saying like it is a manifested destiny Right of like based on what you choose and want to do.

00:51:05.326 --> 00:51:18.840
Uh, that choice is what you will manifest in the, in this life, um, and the thou mayest choose to overcome sin, thou mayest choose to accept these things.

00:51:18.840 --> 00:51:30.239
Those are the predications for like, every, like everything in the old testament, in the new testament, and like it ultimately boils down to like, over and over in Jesus's teachings.

00:51:30.239 --> 00:51:31.884
Like the most simplest you can make it as.

00:51:31.884 --> 00:51:34.451
Like asking it will be given to you.

00:51:34.451 --> 00:51:38.106
Like seeking you will find knocking the door shall be open.

00:51:38.106 --> 00:51:45.429
Open, um, and he just boils it down Like if you choose me, then this is what you receive.

00:51:45.760 --> 00:51:49.983
If you do not choose me, and I think so many people think like, well, it's not a choice.

00:51:49.983 --> 00:52:03.423
It's like I've just I'm born and I'm either going to hell or I'm not, or I have no control over my sinful nature, um, and so like, I think, like that's, like I don't know, like to me, it's like it was one of those moments of like wow.

00:52:03.423 --> 00:52:16.969
This is a very life-changing book because I feel like the perspective is very beautiful, the examples are very like, real and relatable, and it helps me actively, just continually, think about my faith and my walk with God.

00:52:16.969 --> 00:52:27.753
And am I choosing to honor God and walk with God today, and am I making an active choice, or am I passively just letting sin slip into my life.

00:52:27.753 --> 00:52:31.885
Right um what were you gonna?

00:52:31.905 --> 00:52:41.318
say on that, yeah, you know, and I'd say like it's all the, and then there's like there is a whole, nother deeper layer to what you're saying also, which is the.

00:52:41.318 --> 00:52:46.250
I know you believe this, but is the like the way that this is not to be confused?

00:52:46.250 --> 00:52:47.492
I was clear around.

00:52:47.492 --> 00:52:52.885
What you're saying is like not to be confused with binary action results in your eternal standing?

00:52:52.885 --> 00:52:55.612
Yes, because it's not two scales.

00:52:55.612 --> 00:52:58.206

Dog-Eared Dialogues - East of Eden Part 3

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