Dog-Eared Dialogues - East of Eden Part 2

Transcript

WEBVTT

00:00:02.084 --> 00:00:04.131
I've been reading this book, oh yeah.

00:00:04.211 --> 00:00:04.772
Listen to a book.

00:00:04.772 --> 00:00:17.047
It's by this guy, jeremy Robinson, and the first book I listened to his on Audible was called Mind Bullet and it's so.

00:00:17.047 --> 00:00:45.750
It's very John Wick on like steroids, like comedic john wick, yeah, and follows this protagonist who's a world-class assassin, and the way he does it is he uses his mind to shrink a little bit of the target's brain matter inside into like a just a little vacuum pop and so no one can really track him down.

00:00:45.750 --> 00:00:48.366
Yeah, because they're like how did this person die?

00:00:48.366 --> 00:00:53.130
And he usually like pops their brain and then he like makes it look like an accident, like a car accident or something.

00:00:53.130 --> 00:01:05.599
It was really like schlocky pulpy, yeah, very violent but like entertaining you know Not to be confused with Ronon jeremy's mouth bullet.

00:01:07.382 --> 00:01:10.688
Ron jeremy's mouth bullet, that's wrong.

00:01:10.688 --> 00:01:13.072
He's a old-time porn star.

00:01:13.072 --> 00:01:19.206
Oh sorry, it's like mouth bullet ron jeremy.

00:01:20.009 --> 00:01:21.731
Is that an allusion to his wiener?

00:01:21.731 --> 00:01:24.912
That's wrong, it's whatever you should feel bad.

00:01:24.953 --> 00:01:25.496
It's whatever you want.

00:01:25.496 --> 00:01:25.980
You should feel bad.

00:01:26.359 --> 00:01:30.500
It's whatever you want it to be.

00:01:30.500 --> 00:01:37.944
Anyways, it was an okay book.

00:01:37.944 --> 00:01:46.231
But I saw that Jeremy Robinson had this huge he's written so many books and they have a lot of good reviews and I was just like, all right, I kind of want to see what else he's got to offer.

00:01:46.231 --> 00:01:53.507
And there's this book he wrote and I guess it was the first book he wrote, but he re-released it cause he had written originally written underneath the pen name.

00:01:53.507 --> 00:02:00.385
It's called Torment and I really didn't know like how to.

00:02:02.308 --> 00:02:02.588
I don't.

00:02:02.588 --> 00:02:10.683
I don't know how to explain it because it's really not at all like it's first initially described, but it is a very good horror book, I will say.

00:02:10.683 --> 00:02:44.263
So far, context is this journalist is interviewing the US president when nukes launch and there's five minutes before the end of the continental US and there is just kind of like and there's five minutes before the end of the continental US and there is just kind of like a race against time, real craziness, and it just keeps on amping up and amping up and it's gotten to a point where I'm like I didn't see it going here, but I'm all about it, oh yeah, and it's way better than Mind Bullet.

00:02:44.282 --> 00:03:13.048
Now I'll say this If you're not versed in some of Christian theology, it might come off a little preachy, because I think he's trying to help explain without it just being a lot of in-narrative dialogue, apocalyptic theology, right, and so it's one of those things of like.

00:03:13.048 --> 00:03:13.872
I think he's doing it in a good way.

00:03:13.872 --> 00:03:15.881
But I've seen a lot some like people just be disgruntled in the reviews.

00:03:15.881 --> 00:03:21.278
Like gosh, I didn't want it to preach at me like christian theology.

00:03:21.338 --> 00:03:37.485
I don't even think the guy's a christ Christian right, he's just using like the it's a setting yeah, like the whole the story that's been like referenced for thousands of years yeah, I'll say this the best way I can describe it.

00:03:39.004 --> 00:03:49.133
It started out as like World War 3, intense thriller oh my gosh, this is the end of the world.

00:03:49.133 --> 00:04:04.770
And then it became like, honestly like, uh, that one movie, the crazies and dante's inferno, it's pretty good, it's pretty spooky.

00:04:04.770 --> 00:04:16.076
But anyways, all I said, welcome to the Make it Pat show where we're picking up part two of our dog-eared dialogues.

00:04:16.076 --> 00:04:29.745
Dog-eared dialogues is where we just talk to you all about a book we love, and it's not a review of the book, it's honestly just a breakdown of why we loved it the characters, the themes.

00:04:29.745 --> 00:04:40.764
And, yeah, you know, the assumption is that you've already read the book or familiar enough with it that you don't care about spoilers, and this is not going to be.

00:04:40.764 --> 00:04:45.600
You know, these episodes are never us trying to dance around the spoilers.

00:04:45.600 --> 00:05:10.824
We're assuming you're right here with us, you know about the characters, you know about the themes and you get to kind of enjoy participating with us as we kind of recount it and hopefully, uh, you hear something new, um, but all that said, east of eden, big book, great book, uh, but it's in four parts and each part kind of deserves its own little moment in the sun.

00:05:10.884 --> 00:05:14.757
So we're here listening to some space banjo.

00:05:14.757 --> 00:05:16.401
Check him out on youtube.

00:05:16.401 --> 00:05:17.502
He makes great banjo music.

00:05:17.502 --> 00:05:23.221
This is all hand plucked by him and recorded and he's got a bunch of.

00:05:23.221 --> 00:05:25.091
He's got a celestial banjo.

00:05:25.091 --> 00:05:30.309
This is the haunting bigfoot banjo swampy, skunk, ape ambience.

00:05:30.309 --> 00:05:31.752
I like it.

00:05:31.752 --> 00:05:35.762
Yeah, a lot of people in the comments are like I saw the title and I had to click.

00:05:35.762 --> 00:05:36.882
How could I not click?

00:05:36.882 --> 00:05:40.067
Oh yeah, um, but uh, anyways, check out space banjo.

00:05:40.067 --> 00:05:51.230
He's got good tunes to listen while you're reading a book, pat part two East of Eden.

00:05:51.319 --> 00:05:52.565
Let's just get right on into it.

00:05:52.565 --> 00:05:56.389
Do you want to do like what?

00:05:56.389 --> 00:05:58.607
Do you want to do A little bit of a recap?

00:05:58.607 --> 00:06:05.764
Because usually we like usually before for Blood Meridian we just had part one be characters, part two was themes.

00:06:05.764 --> 00:06:10.430
But now we're kind of each doing characters and themes from each part of the novel.

00:06:10.430 --> 00:06:11.846
So how do you want to start us out?

00:06:12.060 --> 00:06:16.252
Yeah, I could do a brief overview of kind of some of the stuff we talked about in part one.

00:06:16.252 --> 00:06:25.466
In part one we introduced a lot of our characters and some of them aren't even in part two, so I'm not going to talk about them.

00:06:25.466 --> 00:06:33.728
But the main people you need to know about are there's two families that this story centers around.

00:06:33.728 --> 00:06:45.548
You have the Trask family and the Hamilton family, and the Trask family is kind of like and as the title goes, east of Eden.

00:06:45.548 --> 00:06:53.797
You know Steinbeck's playing with the age old story of Cain and Abel and good and evil and choosing good and evil.

00:06:53.797 --> 00:07:09.194
This isn't an absolute, but the Trask family is almost like living out the curse over.

00:07:09.733 --> 00:07:10.735
The curse of man.

00:07:10.735 --> 00:07:12.904
The curse of man, you know, at original sin.

00:07:13.982 --> 00:07:26.588
You know, and the themes play into the Hamilton family as well, but the Hamilton family kind of is alongside the Trask family in their In the Trask family journey.

00:07:26.588 --> 00:07:36.302
The Hamiltons come in and out of it and are kind of their supporting characters in it as well.

00:07:36.302 --> 00:07:41.430
As you know, like I think of Sam Hamilton kind of as like a Gandalf-y type.

00:07:41.430 --> 00:07:46.925
You know like he shows up when you need him with the wisdom you need and it's really like Melchizedekek.

00:07:46.925 --> 00:07:50.540
Yeah, he's a big old part of the story but also he's not the main character.

00:07:50.540 --> 00:07:53.389
So, and throughout this we see the hamiltons come in and out.

00:07:53.389 --> 00:08:01.250
So the two main families, the trask and the hamiltons and, um, basically up to this point we have adam trask.

00:08:01.250 --> 00:08:15.028
Adam Trask has gone from a boy in part one to now he's a man and he is married and he's taken his new wife, kathy, and we left it off with.

00:08:15.028 --> 00:08:25.028
The big cliffhanger was that Charles, adam's brother, slept with Kathy, the new wife.

00:08:25.379 --> 00:08:28.625
Right before they leave to California and that's the last line of it.

00:08:28.625 --> 00:08:30.607
And it's not that they just sleep together.

00:08:30.607 --> 00:08:39.272
She outright tells Adam, I'm still too injured to make love to you.

00:08:39.272 --> 00:08:42.240
Let's consummate our marriage another night.

00:08:42.240 --> 00:08:46.626
He says that's fine, totally fine, doesn't pressure at all.

00:08:46.626 --> 00:08:58.269
She then drugs him so much that he is in a near coma so that she can then go to his brother and pressure him to have sex.

00:08:58.269 --> 00:09:02.070
Yes, and he, uh, he buckles, he does.

00:09:02.070 --> 00:09:03.402
And I just still.

00:09:03.402 --> 00:09:04.602
I still stand by that.

00:09:04.602 --> 00:09:09.649
Like I don't think anyone expected Charles to put up any effort, right, he buckles, he does.

00:09:09.649 --> 00:09:10.491
I still stand by that.

00:09:10.491 --> 00:09:12.875
I don't think anyone expected Charles to put up any effort.

00:09:12.894 --> 00:09:12.995
Right.

00:09:13.014 --> 00:09:15.759
But I still respect that he put up at least three protests yeah.

00:09:15.759 --> 00:09:16.360
You know what I mean?

00:09:16.360 --> 00:09:18.080
Yeah, it's as best as he gave it the old college try yeah.

00:09:18.080 --> 00:09:19.926
More than the college try.

00:09:19.926 --> 00:09:21.962
That's more than anyone ever tried in?

00:09:22.003 --> 00:09:25.849
college For sure, and so what we established last time was all right.

00:09:25.849 --> 00:09:28.914
Kathy is the embodiment of evil.

00:09:28.914 --> 00:09:38.163
She is an evil, manipulative person who uses manipulation to get what she wants.

00:09:38.163 --> 00:09:49.607
And we have the brothers Adam and Charles Trask, and they are at odds with one another, adam and Charles Trask, and they are at odds with one another.

00:09:49.607 --> 00:10:08.253
And so, as their story, together with Adam and Charles, it kind of comes to a close, we get into, we enter this part two.

00:10:08.253 --> 00:10:11.729
We see a lot of.

00:10:11.729 --> 00:10:23.029
We see the hamiltons and trasks meet each other, we see a lot of stuff and we're going to get into all this, um, but first I think the biggest takeaways from part one is kathy bad.

00:10:23.029 --> 00:10:32.601
Adam and charles are at odds, like cain and abel and charles was actually physically marked.

00:10:33.102 --> 00:10:34.485
Yep, and so was kathy.

00:10:34.485 --> 00:10:38.072
Both were marked to be a type of cane right.

00:10:38.072 --> 00:10:43.246
They had like scars that could not be hidden on their foreheads.

00:10:44.168 --> 00:10:56.969
And then we have the Hamilton family and there was some setup about them in their history, but they have not yet intersected the Trask family as they will in part two.

00:10:58.860 --> 00:11:08.942
Yeah, and I think thematically, you know, the beginning of the book really is just laying the ground work for, like biblical allegories.

00:11:08.942 --> 00:11:11.263
But I don't really think there's a like.

00:11:11.263 --> 00:11:19.749
I don't think the main theme of the book is quite yet introduced, right, but it's like it's setting you up so that way you're familiar.

00:11:19.749 --> 00:11:26.605
It's kind of like doing rehearsal, right, like hey, here's Cain and Abel, here's Cain and Abel, here's Cain and Abel, here's Cain and Abel, here's Cain and Abel.

00:11:27.299 --> 00:11:28.745
It's a little bit like Groundhog Day.

00:11:29.427 --> 00:11:37.833
Yeah, a little bit, but it's also just like again, yeah, I think it's just getting you comfortable with the concept of biblical allegories.

00:11:37.833 --> 00:11:50.610
Literally, the book East of Eden is this idea of we're just right outside of Eden, we're right next to paradise, yeah, and we're falling short right and uh.

00:11:50.610 --> 00:11:52.274
So I think that's kind of.

00:11:52.274 --> 00:12:15.953
I think here, though, in part two is like the main meat and potatoes gets like alluded to, and then part three is where it really is like all right, and here's the theme from beginning to end, live down, right, and that's how it goes from like part three to part four is like the full exploration of the theme.

00:12:15.953 --> 00:12:24.220
But here in part two, we get the main theme presented, I believe, but before we do that, there's some new characters and stuff.

00:12:24.220 --> 00:12:25.900
For sure it, I believe, um, but before we do that, there's some new characters and stuff.

00:12:25.900 --> 00:12:27.126
So for sure, um, I uh.

00:12:27.347 --> 00:12:50.735
Yeah, I think you should uh introduce these newbies, for sure, and I think one one of the things to, to one way to consider part one is almost like and I guess I'm in, I'm in the lord of the rings analogies right now I'll try to be my last one, but it it's like the Hobbit it sets up the world, it sets up what's happening in the past, and now we're getting into the story.

00:12:51.919 --> 00:12:52.100
The story.

00:12:52.100 --> 00:12:54.008
Yeah, We'll start to meet the main characters and these things right.

00:12:54.501 --> 00:13:08.815
So it's like now there's some groundwork there and so it's not until the end of part two we meet, um, aaron and caleb, who are babies.

00:13:08.815 --> 00:13:11.985
Hey, man, he doesn't go by, caleb, he doesn't.

00:13:11.985 --> 00:13:26.014
But that's what we'll get into, that, yeah, because, uh, yeah, aaron and caleb, they're the sons of adam trask the proper, the proper spelling of aaron too, not A-A-Ron Right, it's just A-Ron.

00:13:26.014 --> 00:13:37.306
And so Caleb does decide to go by Cal ongoing in the book, it doesn't come around until part three.

00:13:37.647 --> 00:13:42.364
Yeah, yeah, I mean they literally they're not named until the last chapter of part two.

00:13:42.364 --> 00:13:42.965
This is true.

00:13:42.985 --> 00:14:02.340
But they're there and so I'm they're there, and so I'm kind of introducing them first, as they do get introduced in this part, but there's really not much to get into them at the moment as their babies will break them down into that final chapter of part two we have.

00:14:02.340 --> 00:14:03.942
Also, the new character is going to be kind of key in here is Faye the.

00:14:03.942 --> 00:14:12.725
This you know, I call her Fat Ditsy Whoremaster, which I think that's what she is.

00:14:12.746 --> 00:14:16.328
Yeah, there's no alluding to her ever being a whore herself.

00:14:16.328 --> 00:14:18.721
She just owned the whorehouse.

00:14:18.721 --> 00:14:23.524
That was very um, what's the word Covivial?

00:14:23.524 --> 00:14:29.861
Covivial, there's a word there for that.

00:14:29.861 --> 00:14:35.432
It's the uh, it's familial, like you go to this whorehouse for uh for uh for country cooking yeah, you go so that way.

00:14:35.432 --> 00:14:49.607
A nice plump woman says, baby, it's so hard being in the 1900s and she holds you and you cry in her, in her arms, yeah, and then uh I think it's alluded to that like it was all.

00:14:49.707 --> 00:15:04.035
Like the sex was always just like a thing that occurred afterwards, right, like it was like a tripping of an accident of like you trip and stumble, roll down the hill and what you're most concerned about is like the rocks you hit.

00:15:04.035 --> 00:15:09.248
But by the end of the hill you also find out you had sex exactly but.

00:15:09.248 --> 00:15:43.787
But it's like it was like one of those things that were like you don't go to phase primarily for sex, you go for the loving warmth and comfort of a woman who, it has a has a faux care about you yeah, yeah, it's kind of a yeah, a motherly care type thing and the part of that being too like and we'll get into this too where they do talk about there's, there's a couple whorehouses in the in the town and so, and there's, there's three very different styles and and, uh, you know of, you know of what men are going out looking for.

00:15:43.967 --> 00:15:54.312
Yeah, and phase is, the is the comfort, it's the peach pie right yep and so, um, she, we'll get into more of her and her.

00:15:54.413 --> 00:16:00.851
Really, her story with kathy, um, and then all of hamilton comes up as well.

00:16:00.851 --> 00:16:17.125
She's one of sam hamilton's kids and she we briefly introduced her last time, but she has a good chunk in here where, um, really, you know, her story is kind of how she is an example of being, you know, antithetical to kathy and we'll break that down as we get into that.

00:16:17.125 --> 00:16:33.643
Chapter 16, 17, whichever one, that is, um and the, the most important character introduced in this, perhaps, debatably, the whole book, yeah, is a guy, debatably.

00:16:33.643 --> 00:16:38.231
Yeah, a guy named lee, and I am a Lee Dude.

00:16:38.231 --> 00:16:45.572
I'm such a big fan of Lee I think that most people read this book.

00:16:47.321 --> 00:16:48.326
Yeah, how could you not love him?

00:16:48.326 --> 00:17:03.001
I think there's a character later on named Abra, and the love she has for Lee as a surrogate father figure, um, is, I think, the love that every reader has for lee.

00:17:03.001 --> 00:17:07.108
Like, oh my gosh, like this is.

00:17:07.108 --> 00:17:14.676
This man is a wonderful man like I would love to just be taught by him and instructed by him, for sure and we'll get into like.

00:17:14.717 --> 00:17:18.383
This book was written at a time with like when when Orientalism was popular.

00:17:18.383 --> 00:17:27.134
Maybe some of the portrayals were not completely kosher by today's standards, and I'm going to talk about this as it was written at the time.

00:17:27.134 --> 00:17:33.907
So if anybody has a problem with that, that's okay, but I'm just talking about at the time.

00:17:33.907 --> 00:17:44.048
And so he's a Chinese-American, he's a house servant, he's educated, he's very private and reserved and also he's mysterious.

00:17:44.048 --> 00:17:49.490
He's kind of a little bit Mr Miyagi-ish in this.

00:17:49.490 --> 00:17:50.653
Yeah Right.

00:17:50.720 --> 00:17:55.801
So he, it's his, his past is aloof, he's aloof, he's aloof.

00:17:55.821 --> 00:18:15.603
and there is this, like orientalism, like uh mysticism behind, like what he knows a little bit, and not like magic or you know, it's like like all the way on, like far end, yeah it's not like he's like clapping his hands and going right exactly it's not anything like that, right, but it's just that he's.

00:18:15.643 --> 00:18:23.446
You know, he is um, well, we may come to find out different, but he's an outsider to those in the story.

00:18:23.446 --> 00:18:40.550
Yeah, he is perceived as this outsider and so, um, and as you get to know him, he becomes a much more complex individual, but he's also a caring and loyal person as well, and so I think that, um, yeah, lee, two thumbs up for old lee.

00:18:40.550 --> 00:18:46.565
Um, I don't know if we get his first name I, I don't think.

00:18:47.006 --> 00:18:50.192
I think he's always lee, yeah, which is just, his name is lee.

00:18:50.740 --> 00:19:02.020
So yeah, I don't know yeah, well, I think, like I mean we got time for you to kind of dive in because like there's really not that many new characters that we have a lot to go over, right.

00:19:02.020 --> 00:19:10.023
So like I think we could take the time to just go into the concepts of like Lee as a character, right, like, who is he?

00:19:10.023 --> 00:19:15.079
You know he's, he's this, you know you already said he's this Chinese American immigrant.

00:19:15.079 --> 00:19:22.294
But like he puts on a, he comes off as a very like new naive, he's a fob.

00:19:24.346 --> 00:19:25.349
Like fresh off the boat yeah.

00:19:26.382 --> 00:19:27.807
And he's like he uses.

00:19:27.807 --> 00:19:39.348
He speaks in Chinese pigeon like English Chinese English patois pigeon Right and he seems to be like almost like at first one, like he's introduced, like.

00:19:39.348 --> 00:19:40.142
Here's my immediate reaction.

00:19:40.162 --> 00:19:40.925
It's actually a character.

00:19:41.661 --> 00:19:53.547
My immediate reaction when he's introduced and like he's like the narrator Richard Poe is doing his like Chinese pigeon voice, I'm like, oh, this is way problematic.

00:19:53.547 --> 00:19:58.785
Like, you get like it'd be very hard to write this character today, because it is.

00:19:58.785 --> 00:20:01.909
It's a very convincing portrayal.

00:20:01.909 --> 00:20:03.548
Me get tea for you mister?

00:20:03.750 --> 00:20:05.380
Yeah, you likey, you know it's like.

00:20:05.380 --> 00:20:11.750
Oh, mr Trask, yeah, it's just like oh, mr Trask, I will get chicken.

00:20:11.849 --> 00:20:14.365
Bad day for chicken, good day for us.

00:20:14.365 --> 00:20:20.161
And it's just, you're just like no, no way, no day for us.

00:20:20.161 --> 00:20:21.303
And it's just, you're just like no, right, no way, no way.

00:20:21.303 --> 00:20:22.204
This is like what this is like.

00:20:22.204 --> 00:20:31.487
There's no way they wrote this character just to be like the butt of a joke, right, and that's the beauty of lee, though, and I think john steinbeck is like.

00:20:31.527 --> 00:20:43.663
John steinbeck had this, like he saw the opportunity for, like a character that was very much poorly portrayed and often, you know, um, what's the word?

00:20:43.663 --> 00:20:49.810
Um, like discarded, just as like a comedic relief character, right?

00:20:49.810 --> 00:21:09.348
Or you know, culturally not, a lot of people put a lot of probably, uh, stake into the word of Chinese immigrant servants and stuff like that, right, and just like immigrants in general back then, but a lot of people just wrote them off as being dumb or like, like, oh, that's just your chinese philosophy, like that.

00:21:09.348 --> 00:21:34.395
Here in america we have mathematics and you know science and like they, they kind of just like were written off and we find out, it's all an act, you know, and Lee is actually a very well-read, sophisticated, has no accent really, other than like a somewhat Northern California accent from you know where he was mostly raised in San Francisco.

00:21:34.876 --> 00:21:39.112
Went to school, went to school, yeah, and he's a Presbyterian.

00:21:39.112 --> 00:21:43.307
Like he knows the word of God very well and he's reads it quite frequently.

00:21:43.307 --> 00:22:08.163
Uh, and he knows it so well that he's very confident in like making a lot of philosophical conversations of like scripture and the philosophies and scripture compared to the philosophies of like, uh, you know, china and like the chinese philosophies, um, and it's a, it's like I thought, I thought it was a very smart uh twist, you know, and it came very early on.

00:22:08.163 --> 00:22:20.292
Like it wasn't like we had to sit through chapters and chapters of like derogatory, uh, self-abasement of Lee acting a fool.

00:22:20.292 --> 00:22:27.210
It was like we get introduced to him and we're like, oh my gosh, dude, there's no way they can have this character in the book the whole time.

00:22:27.640 --> 00:22:29.064
Right, because it would be like the.

00:22:29.064 --> 00:22:32.051
I'm trying to look a picture up on Google of it.

00:22:32.051 --> 00:22:36.070
I think Google is censoring me because I know I've seen these posters before.

00:22:37.221 --> 00:22:52.531
It's like the black he literally is described as like the black button up shirt he's got the chinese hat chinese hat with the, the q, with the q, which is the, the, you know, the, the long the long braid ponytail and you know, and like it would be, like the.

00:22:52.612 --> 00:23:14.069
I know I've seen these like political posters before, like propaganda posters, whereas, yeah, you know, like big, like buck tooth, you know like it's like and that's how steinbeck introduces him out the gate in order to, I think, also like, reveal him as a, as a, as human, you know, and like the, um, the.

00:23:14.069 --> 00:23:51.579
I think a lot of authors do this and a lot of authors could do it well, and now you're not allowed to do it because you get canceled out the gate, which is by taking a person and shoving them into a caricature, especially upon introduction in the literature, and then revealing their who they truly are and showing them as human and as not othered, you can actually make bigger leaps and bounds than just starting off the gate.

00:23:51.579 --> 00:23:53.824
Like, um and like.

00:23:53.824 --> 00:24:10.122
They use the word uh in the book, they use the word chink quite a bit, um and like, if you didn't write that in the story, you would be um to be dishonest, dishonest to the time, yeah, to how people saw them.

00:24:10.301 --> 00:24:19.090
And also and it also takes away from the power you have of revealing the real man behind it and so and maybe, maybe, people think other than that.

00:24:19.090 --> 00:24:22.830
But I think Mark Twain did this well with some characters as well.

00:24:22.830 --> 00:24:32.181
Like he, he used the N word he's the N word almost innocent in a way, to destroy the N word in a way you know, like and like so, like.

00:24:32.181 --> 00:24:36.811
There's certain things like that where you could, I think, that um.

00:24:43.559 --> 00:24:45.022
Steinbeck does a good job of using lee in this way.

00:24:45.042 --> 00:25:00.074
Um, if you, if uh people look up a chinese immigrant cartoon, um, there will be like a lot of these classic late 1800, 1900, uh, like newspaper caricatures and we still see this today, right With like political parties and stuff like that.

00:25:00.563 --> 00:25:32.667
But you'll see kind of like the classic depiction of like this blue button-up jacket, the white pants with kind of like a apron of some kind and then like the black cap and the long queue, and it's very, you know it's clearly not depicting Chinese immigrants in a kind way q and it's very, you know it's clearly not depicting chinese immigrants in a kind way, um, but that is like how like lee dresses and that's an active choice that he makes to try to appear this way, um, which you know we'll get into thematically later on.

00:25:32.667 --> 00:25:39.240
But just a very um, a very like Well written character.

00:25:39.240 --> 00:26:03.012
And I'll be honest, dude, I was concerned At first when he revealed himself, cause I was like we've already gotten the reveal Of one character being incredibly Not who they are which is Kathy, and she has this, you know, she disguises herself but she's entirely evil and the narrator doesn't introduce Lee to us of like Lee was unlike Kathy.

00:26:03.012 --> 00:26:07.751
He was born completely good evil, lacking in every fiber of his being.

00:26:08.201 --> 00:26:11.380
It's just like he's just introduced and we're allowed to make our assumptions.

00:26:11.380 --> 00:26:21.300
And then we find out little by little like, oh, like gosh, maybe me as the reader is a little like I shouldn't have made those assumptions either.

00:26:21.300 --> 00:26:29.467
Um, and it doesn't feel like a high gotcha by steinbeck, but it definitely feels like, oh, I'm just as surprised as samuel hamilton is.

00:26:29.467 --> 00:26:32.413
I was surprised, yeah, you know what I mean for sure.

00:26:32.413 --> 00:26:34.443
Um, it was believable.

00:26:34.443 --> 00:26:40.453
Uh, I don't know Any other characters that you kind of want to spend any time on before we get into themes.

00:26:41.779 --> 00:26:45.808
You know other people we mentioned last time.

00:26:45.808 --> 00:26:47.292
You know their developments and stuff.

00:26:48.480 --> 00:26:49.404
Like yeah, I'm fine.

00:26:50.101 --> 00:26:53.305
I think we'll continue to keep getting into them as we go through kind of these themes.

00:26:53.305 --> 00:26:54.368
They'll break down too, you know.

00:26:54.368 --> 00:27:22.576
But you know, at this point Adam and Charles are men, they're grown men, um, they've been through a lot of life together and at this point you know, like the cain and abel story has died and in one sense, yeah, abel's not dead and this is kind of like or and even like, even in one sense in this part of this book, like abel is dead and now adam like in the biblical sense yeah is adam.

00:27:22.839 --> 00:27:33.162
Yeah, like the first man you know, and so the as, the as the wheel turns um and like, and, and charles's plight, fate is just kind of set.

00:27:33.162 --> 00:27:34.104
Yeah, it's kind of like, but it's fitting.

00:27:34.104 --> 00:27:34.566
You know what I mean?

00:27:34.566 --> 00:27:36.671
It's like we never hear about what else happens to cain right, there's a group of set.

00:27:36.691 --> 00:27:38.536
Yeah, it's kind of like, but it's fitting.

00:27:38.536 --> 00:27:39.037
You know what I mean.

00:27:39.037 --> 00:27:41.247
It's like we never hear about what else happens to Cain.

00:27:41.247 --> 00:28:05.119
Right, there's a group of people called the Canaanites and they're not good people, that's all we know about it, like biblically, historically right, Mm-hmm, and so it's kind of like fitting that like we just get left on this note with, like Charles just being disgruntled and but staying in his little farm, you know?

00:28:05.119 --> 00:28:10.823
Um, all right, let's get into the themes here.

00:28:10.823 --> 00:28:24.193
So, um, jumping right into it, um, there's a lot of uh, continually building on themes that we talked about in part one, um, but I think that there's also quite a few that kind of group together chapter and maybe not necessarily uh, like three chapters aren't always the same about stuff.

00:28:24.193 --> 00:28:27.463
So, um, there might be a little bit of repeat from part one here.

00:28:27.523 --> 00:28:32.461
But, um, early on, chapter 12 is again like this transitionary chapter.

00:28:32.461 --> 00:28:35.067
I think that is supposed to be a philosophical.

00:28:35.067 --> 00:28:37.211
It's like John Steinbeck, who's the narrator.

00:28:37.211 --> 00:29:05.369
He is essentially discussing how there's like this transition at the end of the 19th century, where the 1800s is coming to a close and everyone's excited and looking forward to the 1900s in a new century, the 1900s, in a new century, um, and they're eager to leave behind the idea, like, of the civil war and slavery and things like that.

00:29:05.369 --> 00:29:10.801
But there's also, like this film of nostalgia that everybody always has.

00:29:10.801 --> 00:29:38.575
Every generation kind of gets this and it's this, it's how, like nostalgia allows us to gloss over bad times, because we're reminiscing about the good things that are gone and like we don't realize, like more often than not those good things aren't really gone, probably, but you're probably forgetting all the bad things that are also now, like in the past too, and go ahead.

00:29:39.001 --> 00:29:53.865
And it's just like his opening of part one, where he's talking about the salinas valley where, in a shorter version of this, as you know, you have these droughts and rainy years and the people forget about the good, and then the bad comes and they forget, they forget about the good.

00:29:53.865 --> 00:29:57.641
Then, when the bad comes and ends, it's good again.

00:29:57.641 --> 00:29:58.945
They forget that times are ever bad.

00:29:58.945 --> 00:30:05.834
So he's in this beginning of part, the big, first chapter, part one, and first chapter of part two.

00:30:05.834 --> 00:30:19.128
He's speaking to the same condition in humans, and now on a broader scale, not just a people group, a small community in the salinas valley, but now like the whole of america.

00:30:19.128 --> 00:30:31.563
Um, as, as things change and as they move forward into these times I do, uh, like a the quote though, this quote from chapter 12.

00:30:31.623 --> 00:30:32.243
I'm gonna read it.

00:30:32.243 --> 00:30:36.452
Uh, it's him kind of summarizing the attitude.

00:30:36.452 --> 00:30:40.902
Now, this isn't steinbeck's opinion of the 1900, I mean not 1900, the 1800s, uh, but it's just kind of summarizing the attitude.

00:30:40.902 --> 00:30:47.429
Now, this isn't Steinbeck's opinion of the 1900, I mean not 1900, the 1800s, uh, but it's just like how he's describing the attitude of everyone during this transitionary into the new centuries.

00:30:47.429 --> 00:30:49.740
To hell with that rotten century.

00:30:49.740 --> 00:30:53.049
Let's get it over and the door closed, shut on it.

00:30:53.049 --> 00:30:55.405
Let's close it like a book and go on reading.

00:30:55.405 --> 00:30:57.131
New chapter, new life.

00:30:57.661 --> 00:31:02.192
A man will have clean hands once we get the lid slammed shut on that stinking century.

00:31:02.192 --> 00:31:03.684
It's a fair thing ahead.

00:31:03.684 --> 00:31:06.207
There's no rot on this clean new hundred years.

00:31:06.207 --> 00:31:07.089
It's not stacked.

00:31:07.089 --> 00:31:12.373
And any bastard who deals seconds from this new deck of years, why will crucify him?

00:31:12.373 --> 00:31:13.726
Head down over a privy?

00:31:13.726 --> 00:31:22.381
Oh, but strawberries will never taste as good again and the thighs of women have lost their clutch.

00:31:22.381 --> 00:31:24.345
And it's like this concept of like.

00:31:24.345 --> 00:31:30.866
It's true, you know, no matter what generation you're in, it was always better back in my day.

00:31:30.866 --> 00:31:32.991
There was always more virtue back in my day.

00:31:32.991 --> 00:31:38.251
Oh, but man, it was harder back in my day and I'm happy those times are gone because you got it easy.

00:31:38.251 --> 00:31:46.911
Now, you know, and it's just like it's the kind of the same thing, right, I'm pretty sure strawberries and women still got their clutch.

00:31:46.911 --> 00:31:53.579
You know what I mean, right, like.

00:31:53.579 --> 00:31:57.953
So I just found that quote very funny because he's, you know, he's kind of teasing all these nostalgic generational people.

00:32:02.160 --> 00:32:08.130
But that's chapter 12, chapter 13, you know, we see, um, contextually, the trash moving to cath, uh, callie, uh kathy.

00:32:08.130 --> 00:32:11.961
We see again this like reinforcement of her wickedness.

00:32:11.961 --> 00:32:45.028
You know she's attempting a coat hanger abortion, or chemical abortion, knitting needle, knitting needle, that's what it was, and but we also see her able to like wickedly manipulate the doctor and the doctor kind of like at one moment was thinking to punish her for this, to like this, you know, abortion in secret against, you know, her husband, but then thinks, alright, you know what I understand her point of view like, don't try it again, here is going to be some medicine, look after yourself.

00:32:45.028 --> 00:32:54.019
Um, and we get adam meeting samuel, who's going to be like this, uh, paternal mentor, like figure to adam.

00:32:54.820 --> 00:33:20.773
Um, but I do think, like what we see thematically here is that, like in chapter 13, the individual, which is discussed, you know, early in the chapter um, this concept that the individual has the capability to bring good and glory into the world as much as the individual has the capability of bringing evil or mundaneness, like in this concept of choice.

00:33:20.773 --> 00:33:33.112
Right, like an individual free mind is a beautiful thing that has the capability to choose to be good, to choose to create glorifying good things.

00:33:33.112 --> 00:33:38.391
And the book doesn't say it from a theological point of view.

00:33:38.391 --> 00:33:41.724
Right, like glorifying to God, it's just.

00:33:41.724 --> 00:33:58.335
Like it is a glorifying thing for man to creatively create good, and it's a tragedy when a man uses this freedom of his mind to create evil or to not create anything at all.

00:33:58.335 --> 00:33:59.615
Like it's also it's kind of a wickedness to not create anything at all.

00:33:59.615 --> 00:34:03.037
Like it's also it's kind of a wickedness to not create anything at all, to just be mundane.

00:34:03.037 --> 00:34:14.905
And that since our species is the only creative species you know, we, we should take a pride in protecting that creativity.

00:34:16.067 --> 00:34:47.253
And I think the this isn't necessarily, I think, a theme throughout the entirety of the book, but we definitely see it play out a little bit later on, um, and I think it's something that we can relate to a lot today, more so today than you know, I think, previously, but that society wages a war against the free roaming mind, um, and that society, society wants to drug and quell and suppress a creative, free, individual.

00:34:47.253 --> 00:34:53.846
Uh, but doing so is what uh harms a society to?

00:34:53.846 --> 00:35:02.913
To remove creativity to um, disable the creativity, disables innovation, disables the ability to better society.

00:35:02.913 --> 00:35:12.394
And Steinbeck, you know he says, taking this course is a course on a track to suicide, a societal suicide.

00:35:12.394 --> 00:35:25.362
And it's, you know, the suicide by killing one free mind at a time until the society of itself can't create anything new and it dies.

00:35:25.382 --> 00:35:30.260
Um, which I just was, like, I was like dude, I feel like that's, like I feel like that's a lot of where we're at right now, like I can't think of how many I I've.

00:35:30.260 --> 00:35:45.943
I feel kind of bad saying this, but a lot of the high school kids I've been mentoring and helping and trying to help them find their way in life post high school, a lot of them don't have a single ounce of like direction and desire to be creative or like forge a path.

00:35:45.943 --> 00:35:46.364
Right now.

00:35:46.364 --> 00:35:56.940
A lot of them are really struggling and I'm just like I'm sure every generation I'm sure has struggled, but like I do wonder how much of it is just like oh, what's the point?

00:35:56.940 --> 00:36:02.110
Like everything's been created and there's no reward to being creative now.

00:36:02.831 --> 00:36:12.588
I don't know, um, but it does feel like society now tries to really squish the, the creative mind and dull our senses.

00:36:12.588 --> 00:36:14.413
You know, just get in that uh.

00:36:14.413 --> 00:36:15.664
What did you call it the other day?

00:36:15.664 --> 00:36:18.146
The uh scroll of death, or just?

00:36:18.327 --> 00:36:29.719
doom, scrolling, scrolling, doom scrolling, yeah, just constantly scrolling on YouTube to the next video, next video, next video, social media tick, tock, whatever, next post, next post, and just getting in a cyclical doom thing.

00:36:29.719 --> 00:36:38.545
So that way you don't ever do anything, you just sit and occupy and I think, like John Steinbeck, would be terrified if you saw that today.

00:36:38.545 --> 00:36:41.271
He'd be like, oh my God, that's everything I fought against.

00:36:41.271 --> 00:36:49.565
So, yeah, this is chapter 13, beginning of 13, main theme of the book.

00:36:49.565 --> 00:36:52.652
I think and I'll argue that here right now with you, pat, if you want to.

00:36:52.652 --> 00:37:22.867
I don't know if you agree, but I definitely think like the idea that the individual has the capability to choose to bring in good, and it is a glory to do good things and to be creative in creating good things and choosing to do that instead of evil or mundaneness is, I think, the main discussion here, and I think there could be more perspective-wise on that, but I do think that's the main theme of the book.

00:37:23.300 --> 00:37:26.326
But all right that's my done, rambling Over to you for chapter 13.

00:37:26.719 --> 00:37:34.525
I agree with what you're saying and technically the Industrial Revolution happened further back in time, early 1800s.

00:37:34.525 --> 00:37:45.969
But the globalization effect of industrialization and, uh, the industrial revolution is one thing he's kind of speaking to in this.

00:37:45.969 --> 00:37:47.231
You know where he's where.

00:37:47.231 --> 00:37:47.492
You know.

00:37:47.492 --> 00:38:13.266
In chapter 12 we're talking about this movement from the kind of these dark ages of the 18th century, you know, or 19th century, into the 20th century and the because he's speaking to how you know you can make, you know on an assembly line you can do stuff faster and cheaper.

00:38:13.465 --> 00:38:17.925
You can make bread cheaper and he's comparing that to you know, know the creative mind that you're talking about, that like.

00:38:17.925 --> 00:38:38.451
You know that men and an individual, you know, creates these incredible things and then a large group of people can do huge accomplishments, but they can't create the special things an individual does yeah, nothing is created by a group, right, it creates something.

00:38:38.530 --> 00:38:46.925
Everything is created in the individual mind and the group can come together to build it and manufacture it, but it's one man's creation, right?

00:38:46.925 --> 00:39:04.025
Um, and I find that, like I was really, I was like I don't know if I agree with that and then I was like, actually, I don't know, maybe I do agree with that so to think about me, like, even like simple inventions or big inventions, like, like you know, like like Steve Jobs, the iPhone or whatever, like you know it's like.

00:39:04.286 --> 00:39:04.809
And now what?

00:39:04.809 --> 00:39:53.105
Like the ability to like how that's in every single person's hand, or like I feel it's kind of a prime example of what was like like this imaginative, creative individual, and then also, and then, because he kind of talks about too, how the, the, it's kind of like that that creativity, society hijacks it and um, systemizes it, and then, um, it makes it efficient and gets it out to everybody, and then it's destructive, is also like there's like a underbelly to like the individual's creativity that then also does eventually result in societal suicide from the masses, like you know, capitalizing on it.

00:39:53.626 --> 00:40:05.592
Yeah, and I think it's like, that's like what every single like, uh, you know, uh, what's that called the futuristic dystopia?

00:40:05.592 --> 00:40:09.862
That's like what every like sci-fi dystopia is Like.

00:40:09.862 --> 00:40:25.505
We either have the apocalypse where society failed to like prevent the violence, prevent the disease, prevent the destruction, or we have the dystopia, or society has prevented it by disabling everything, yeah, and killing everything.

00:40:25.505 --> 00:40:41.530
And it's just like, I think, like, really, what he's getting here is like, you know, it's John Steinbeck's terrified of the dystopia, um, but uh, the quote here, um, you know a great quote from John Steinbeck in chapter 13.

00:40:41.981 --> 00:40:49.885
Uh, he says and this I believe, that the free, exploring mind of the individual human is the most valuable thing in the world.

00:40:49.885 --> 00:41:19.291
And this I would fight for the freedom of the mind to take any direction it wishes, undirected, um, which I think is a great quote, and I think it's like I it's not always, it's not my wish, right, like this isn't, this isn't what I necessarily wish for the world, Right, or what I believe always, but I do understand what he's saying here and I see that being like truly the theme of the book.

00:41:19.291 --> 00:41:29.931
When I look at the book in hindsight, I see like this is, you know, and then there's there's more context to the quote too, right, but it's in the context that a free exploring mind does a good thing.

00:41:29.931 --> 00:41:39.550
It's not like he wants, like everyone should be able to do whatever they wish, undirected, uh, even if it's evil, right, like kathy is an example of that.

00:41:40.594 --> 00:41:44.324
And so it's like steinbeck doesn't approve of it, right, right.

00:41:44.324 --> 00:41:54.221
And then also I was thinking like, too, like sam hamilton is the embodiment of this too, in a way, just like he is beautiful, creative, always inventing and kind of undirected.

00:41:54.221 --> 00:42:22.820
Oh yeah, you know, just like you know, and and so the same hamilton, is this, like you know, the person who gets to choose, even with someone who has a rigid wife, you know, with her morals and standards she's not very creative, right and, but she's a wonderful anchor and that's why, like you know, I love like him and lee or him, and you know, sneaking behind the barn to have the whiskey or the wine or whatever they bring.

00:42:23.802 --> 00:42:25.085
And so we have this.

00:42:25.085 --> 00:42:40.648
You know this horrible act from Kathy to attempt an abortion, and we continue to see her manipulate people and have really no motherly instinct have really no motherly instinct and out of chapter 13, we just get.

00:42:40.648 --> 00:42:44.615
We kind of take a hard hard like nostalgia road trip.

00:42:44.635 --> 00:42:45.382
Yeah, yeah, just like.

00:42:45.382 --> 00:42:46.425
Let me tell you about my mama.

00:42:46.465 --> 00:42:54.059
Yeah, just a little side side story, and so John Steinbeck is the narrator of the story.

00:42:54.221 --> 00:43:10.195
He's in the story and we mentioned this last week that you know there's people in the story, um, and we mentioned this last week that you know there's people in the story who are real, really existed, um, but the story is fiction, um, and so um, uh, all of hamilton is um.

00:43:10.195 --> 00:43:18.788
You know, one of these characters who is um, is his mother, is his mother in real life, is named Olive Hamilton.

00:43:18.788 --> 00:43:22.891
So I do wonder if this story has any validity to it.

00:43:22.891 --> 00:43:51.586
But in Chapter 14, it gets into the person of Olive and she gets married, she has kids and she also kind of follows in her mom's footsteps of being, you know, being the wife at home who's also, you know, fairly rigid and her morals and her upbringing of her kids is strict and she expects a lot out of them.

00:43:51.586 --> 00:43:54.507
And it's kind of a hard line there.

00:43:54.507 --> 00:43:58.788
And she gets into selling war bonds.

00:43:58.788 --> 00:44:04.869
You know, she, she seems like a really kind of a type a person you know who, like in the like, gets it in her head this is what needs to be done.

00:44:04.911 --> 00:44:13.461
So she's selling war bonds and and it's kind of the conviction to do that comes from what she sees as was it her son.

00:44:13.461 --> 00:44:19.099
Steinbeck's older brother, or a son in the community died and the son of the community died in world war one yeah, in world, or a son in the community died in the war.

00:44:19.099 --> 00:44:20.967
A son in the community died in World War I.

00:44:21.139 --> 00:44:28.820
Yeah, in World War I a son in the community dies and she's like it's my damn duty for that boy and his family.

00:44:28.820 --> 00:44:33.891
She sees it as her responsibility to do this task.

00:44:35.882 --> 00:45:06.230
Yeah, so we're seeing someone who thinks outside of themself you know, so also earlier I said that olive is antithetical to kathy and so um, this, while this really seems like a side story where it gets into her being a mom and selling these war bonds, all these things, I think it's also really is a um, an immediate response to how kathy is as a mother who, even before she's had kids, she's a horrid mother, you know, a horrible mother.

00:45:06.230 --> 00:45:21.346
And the um after selling these war bonds, she ends up um doing so well that they come out to fly around on an airplane and this is airplanes kind of just showed up on the scene here, like it's pretty new invention.

00:45:21.507 --> 00:45:35.646
It's like imagine like being the first one, like first person in your community maybe not just your community, but the first person who's not a military like dog fighter to like hop in a plane.

00:45:35.646 --> 00:45:48.621
It's like the first person here nowadays to like not be like one of the developers of the tesla to like ride in like a self-piloted, like semi-truck, right like this is scary.

00:45:49.061 --> 00:46:02.286
I have no confidence in this thing, you know exactly and like I thought she had like a very like probably it's like she didn't have a big understanding of physics how, how those things work in mechanics, she's just it's made out of metal.

00:46:02.327 --> 00:46:03.009
How does it fly?

00:46:03.009 --> 00:46:04.099
She's just flying in the air.

00:46:04.099 --> 00:46:04.942
And so they.

00:46:04.942 --> 00:46:11.664
She goes on this plane ride and, uh, I think it's a hilarious story there's miscommunication between her and the pilot.

00:46:11.664 --> 00:46:17.827
He starts doing tricks and stunts and he thinks she's all about it, telling him to keep going.

00:46:17.827 --> 00:46:20.344
And he just keeps going and he's like this lady's crazy.

00:46:20.344 --> 00:46:24.262
He's like he's pushing it to the limits and she is terrified out of her mind the whole time.

00:46:24.262 --> 00:46:29.202
And the only reason she got on the plane in the first place was because to not disappoint her kids.

00:46:30.143 --> 00:46:48.108
And so you have this, um, this mother who is a pillar of morality in her family, um, even in sickness it talks about, while she had pneumonia, she was nursing a child and then, when faced with fear, her greatest fear, like flying, she steps into that fear for her children's sake.

00:46:48.108 --> 00:46:55.123
And so you have this mother who is just the opposite of Kathy, and I think it is a.

00:46:55.123 --> 00:46:59.172
It's a, it is a, it is a nice little like relief from the story.

00:46:59.172 --> 00:47:22.527
You know it it's a, it's a good little side note, but it also plays in deeper to to the overall theme of this story of being able to, you know, choose good or evil, and and and do the right thing or the wrong thing and being an individual, and so that's really.

00:47:22.568 --> 00:47:28.885
You know, that's really it for that chapter 14, where we get to see it's a, it's a nice like brevity.

00:47:28.885 --> 00:47:37.019
Yeah, yeah, it's a nice little little comedic break and yeah, also, anytime an author does something like this, I think.

00:47:37.019 --> 00:47:45.132
Sometimes I see some TV shows too, where you take a side plot thing, a little side quest, and it just has nothing to do with it.

00:47:45.132 --> 00:47:45.954
It just pulls you out.

00:47:45.954 --> 00:47:46.894
It's like there's nothing to do with it.

00:47:46.894 --> 00:47:50.264
This is where the genius and good writing of Steinbeck is.

00:47:50.264 --> 00:47:51.981
This is all a part of the story.

00:47:51.981 --> 00:47:53.436
I thoroughly enjoyed this chapter too.

00:47:53.456 --> 00:47:54.137
You know what I mean.

00:47:54.137 --> 00:47:54.757
It was great.

00:47:55.057 --> 00:48:36.244
It made me immediately reminisce about my grandmother and just the type of woman she was, because we talked last time about how every single character in this story I know somebody who is one of these characters, maybe not to the nth degree of being a Kathy, or even all the way over to the Liza Hamilton, the hardcore lady but there's attributes of each of these people that I'd know, and so that's where, um, even still, we had another character brought in who was highly relatable to all people yeah, and so, um, 15 to 16 together kind of build on this theme of a uh.

00:48:36.344 --> 00:48:44.731
I see it as a juxtaposition to the kathy, uh, the cane right, um, lee is introduced again.

00:48:44.731 --> 00:48:47.302
We already talked about him as kind of a character and who he?

00:48:47.302 --> 00:48:52.880
Who he is and the reveal that he's this very sophisticated, well-read uh man.

00:48:52.880 --> 00:48:59.710
But he, he is just as much presenting to the world an image as Kathy is.

00:48:59.710 --> 00:49:12.789
I know this may sound negative, but Lee is lying to everybody until he is seen by them.

00:49:12.789 --> 00:49:13.891
You know what I mean.

00:49:13.891 --> 00:49:34.576
And it's cool because we definitely see adam and we know adam's like unable to see kathy for what she is until, like, the poison is there and revealed, um, and if you read the book you know she, she ends up shooting him and that's the break, that's, that's the reveal.

00:49:34.576 --> 00:49:38.322
But kathy also, we know, up into this point, her character is broken.

00:49:38.322 --> 00:49:42.909
This veil is broken by alcohol where she can't hide herself anymore.

00:49:42.909 --> 00:49:44.820
Her true character shows through.

00:49:45.503 --> 00:49:47.280
Yeah, I was thinking about this, about Lee too.

00:49:47.280 --> 00:50:00.327
Interesting line where when Sam and Lee meet for the first time, they're riding on a wagon and this is where we see Lee break character and he really only breaks character with Sam and confides in Sam because he sees Sam as someone who can understand who he is.

00:50:00.327 --> 00:50:04.806
But he talks about how, why it was like well, why would you be a house servant?

00:50:04.806 --> 00:50:07.135
You know, if you educate, you could do all these things and he's like.

00:50:07.637 --> 00:50:22.514
One of the reasons, he says, is because you can control your master, your master, which is interesting to compare him to Kathy in that he also is being manipulative.

00:50:22.514 --> 00:50:34.990
Yeah, now, it's just a different form of manipulation, maybe with less evil outcomes, but nonetheless it is a manipulation game.

00:50:34.990 --> 00:50:51.557
It is a manipulation game, um, and so the while they're juxtaposed, they are also, they're woven into this, they're, they are cut from the same cloth in a sense, like in a sense, but they are but they are both.

00:50:51.697 --> 00:51:02.777
They're on different sides of the pendulum yeah, he's a, he's a juxtaposition of her morally right, but he is a mirror image of her behaviorally Right and I like that.

00:51:02.978 --> 00:51:30.338
The thing that reveals him is good nature and the philosophical goodness, philosophizing over goodness, of a man and you know, the destiny and free will of a man, and that is like when he, when someone is, someone, reveals himself to be that person who thinks about those things and is good-natured.

00:51:30.898 --> 00:51:47.181
That's what, like, takes the veil off of Lee, um, and uh, excuse me, he, you know, he emphasizes, like you know, I, I have this veil on because it's what people want to see.

00:51:47.181 --> 00:51:59.670
And just like people want to see Kathy as this beautiful, innocent girl, innocent woman, right, um, you know, they want to see her as their daughter or as their wife or you know whatever.

00:51:59.670 --> 00:52:15.509
And um, the people want to see Lee as his, as this, you know, benevolent servant who will do all the tasks, or to his, uh, like Chinese, like immigrant family.

00:52:15.509 --> 00:52:23.320
They want to see him as Chinese, right and to reveal his nature, want to see him as Chinese, right and to reveal his nature, alienizes him from both.

00:52:23.320 --> 00:52:28.684
From both, yeah, just like Kathy's nature, alienize, alienizes, alienizes her from everybody too.

00:52:28.684 --> 00:52:32.547
And um, I thought, I thought it was really well done.

00:52:33.567 --> 00:52:35.628
Cause both these characters deal with loneliness.

00:52:35.628 --> 00:52:37.849
Oh yeah, you know, just in their own ways.

00:52:37.849 --> 00:52:47.838
And and one is a tortured animal in a cage and the other one you know where.

00:52:47.838 --> 00:52:53.041
You have this, you know, because they're both dealing with loneliness, but because one is a selfish person, the other one's a selfless person, that loneliness comes out in different ways.

00:52:54.465 --> 00:53:10.469
Yeah, yeah, and um, I see, I think, like, since they're like they're kind of on the same trajectory of like an ultimate reveal, right, um, but kathy will never be accepted and appreciated.

00:53:10.530 --> 00:53:41.001
Like we see that lee is deeply appreciated, not just by samuel but by Samuel's wife, liza, like she's, she's hesitant, she's distrustful of Lee at first because she knows there's more there, just like she doesn't like Kathy, um, but when she goes uh to help Adam with the babies and kind of tend to the house, at one point she talks with Lee and realizes he's a Presbyterian and he knows the word of God well.

00:53:41.001 --> 00:53:45.666
And you know, that's deeply personal to Liza because of her own faith.

00:53:45.666 --> 00:54:24.202
And we see that, you know, lee is accepted and regarded as a very good man and a man with a good heart and rather than being accepted and appreciated when kathy's revealed, she has those same kind of like obedience from people, but it's out of like fear, right, um, and so she'll never, she'll never get the same result that Lee will by being good Cause like later on we'll get into where uh Kathy reveals herself to Faye and Faye's like oh my God, this is a monster.

00:54:24.884 --> 00:54:38.920
But when uh uh Lee reveals himself to Adam but not, he doesn't really actually, he just he just all of a sudden he just comes in and starts talking normal, like like he doesn't make.

00:54:39.481 --> 00:54:44.389
There wasn't some like intentional big transitional shift.

00:54:44.389 --> 00:55:10.485
It was just like he just he just started being himself with Adam and Adam really like didn't even notice, yeah, like he just won, cause you know, maybe that's the Adam's character of being this, you know, kind of nonchalant guy, but also because it was he knew lee and it was just like, uh, it was natural to be like, oh, like I didn't even notice he's stopped doing all that well and there's no betrayal.

00:55:10.706 --> 00:55:13.728
That's the biggest thing is like kathy's reveal almost always betrays.

00:55:13.728 --> 00:55:16.539
I mean, I think it always does betray whoever she reveals it to.

00:55:16.539 --> 00:55:19.306
Like mr ed Edwards, it's a betrayal to him.

00:55:19.306 --> 00:55:22.483
To Faye, it's a betrayal to her.

00:55:22.483 --> 00:55:24.784
To Adam, it's a betrayal to him and his children.

00:55:24.784 --> 00:55:33.086

Dog-Eared Dialogues - East of Eden Part 2

New to The Mick & Pat Show?