Dog-Eared Dialogues - East of Eden Part 1

Transcript

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Welcome to the second Dog Ear Dialogues.

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I know we've been making promises out our booties and under-delivering on Dog Ear Dialogues, but hey, we are happy you're here because we got a book for y'all, a book that we really enjoyed, and we are so excited to talk about it.

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But this one, of course, we want to do good, due, diligent work to it.

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So this is going to be a four-parter to align with the four parts of the novel, and Pat and I are going to be covering East of Eden.

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That's right.

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And if you start listening now on Audible, if you listen to this part one teaser, get you interested in it and start listening now on Audible.

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If you listen to this part one teaser, get you interested in it and start listening on Audible as these come out, you'll probably be on track to kind of, if you listen very consistently, yeah, you got to go through it.

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It's a long book.

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It's a what it gives you 25 hours or more?

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Yeah, but that gives you a month to listen to it, so you know if you're doing.

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It's no, you know, don't get me wrong, it's no Rebel Yell of 36 hours of Stonewall Jackson.

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You know, it's no Lonesome Dove, which I think Lonesome Dove was also 36 hours, it was a long one.

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But yeah, here at the Make it Pass show we're dropping another Dog Ear Dialogues for y'all.

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I hope you enjoy the banjo in the background, provided courtesy of Space Banjo.

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That is the artist.

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It's just acoustic banjo, so check him out.

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He just records all his own stuff, puts it up on spotify to listen to.

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Um, but yeah, uh, you know, pat, let's kind of just again outline, you know, dog-eared dialogues for people, since this is the second one.

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But the concept is like this isn't't like Brews and Reviews.

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This isn't where, you know, we're giving a thumbs up or thumbs down on a book.

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If we're doing dog-eared dialogues, it's because this book knocked our socks off.

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We both happen to listen to it close enough in proximity that we can do it justice by giving you know a breakdown of why it's great in our opinions and, yeah, any other thoughts or comments from you regarding, like you know, what dog ear dialogues is yeah, no, I think that it's a chance for us to, for me and you to get to revisit something we just really enjoyed and get to kind of have someone to talk to about it, and it's kind of a little it's a little book clubby.

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A hundred percent Get together and talk or talk about you know what we thought about it, what we learned from it.

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You know all that stuff here, the people's perspectives, and so you know, we hope that it can be something like that for you too, if with us.

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Or you know if you, after, even after listening to this, go and read the books and take interest in them and yeah, we're picking books that that have had.

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Yeah, they're impactful, they're not just not just something we uh, cheap, you know paperback novel type thing that we're just like read and done with the story or whatever something that has been.

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You know that deals with kind of the depths of man.

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You know, know some of the things that we really like to like to see the depths of mankind and where we come from.

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Why are we the way we are?

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And I think authors put that together in a, in a really packaged way for us, and sometimes it's a long drawn out package and you got to take the rest of your life to figure out what they were even talking about.

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But um, sometimes it just is clear.

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It's clear as water.

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Yep, like when, when they say it, you see it?

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Um, and I'll be honest, east of Eden, I think, is like you know the idea we grew up as kids.

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It's written by John Steinbeck, uh, back in 1952.

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And I think for millennials and anyone younger than millennials, we got a stigma usually towards these books, like, oh, this book is older than my mom.

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You know what I mean.

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Yeah, and it's long and it's about a time in life that's not relevant anymore or whatever.

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Right, it's like we just kind of wrote all these off in high school and sometimes they're boring and hard to understand.

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You know, I think Great Gatsby is a classic one, right, I just excuse me.

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I know I was dunking on Great Gatsby last podcast when we were talking about East of Eden that we really enjoyed reading it.

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But like, great Gatsby is one of those ones that's constant.

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Like the constant go to is like what is the green light across the lake mean?

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What is the eyes on the billboard mean?

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You know what I mean.

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And it's like I'm not saying the author didn't have an allegory there, I'm just saying that that ruined reading for me in high school, Like just being beat over the head with metaphors from a book that was kind of boring.

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And there's no nothing wrong if you enjoyed great gaspy.

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I accept that it is a good book.

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I just didn't like it.

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Um, but I think east of eden here the reason you and I just are so like we got so much out of it and we enjoyed it is like I really don't think there's a lot of veiled hidden concepts or like the point.

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Like.

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I think Steinbeck really, like you don't know exactly, you're listening or reading along, you're like let's see how he pulls this off.

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Like you know what the play is going to be and you know very much from the beginning of the book what the objective of, what the objective of the book is, uh, what it's trying to tell.

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And so with that, like you, you, you want to see if it's.

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Is it going to be convoluted, is it going to be kind of preachy?

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I think Steinbeck makes it like the most humble, like layman's tense of it.

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You know, like, and it's essentially you know the, this idea, this concept of like you know the forever struggle throughout all of history of man to overcome evil and man to overcome evil, nature, and uh, I think that's like easily something that could be preachy.

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But I loved it because steinbeck, I felt like in Ace of Eden, he just gets to the point with it pretty clear and you're delighted when he does.

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You're like, oh, wow, that was an end zone.

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I feel like that was really good, like he made that really clear.

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And we were kind of dancing around this I'm dancing around the descriptions just to give people an opportunity to turn the podcast off, just to be like okay, it does sound like it's up my alley, so I don't want anything spoiled, right?

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So, uh, but pat, what about you?

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What are you kind of like?

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Why'd you, if you could contextualize it without spoiling anything, why'd you really enjoy it?

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yeah, I think that I went into.

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I really had no idea what it was about going into it, and then I do end up loving the setting of the book.

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I love old America and I love the setting it's set in, and so it really is relatable to me.

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But at the same time it's relatable in one way but at the same time it's a thing that I've never actually been all the way in Like when I was, when I was born.

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The old guys in overalls were some of the guys who were born when, like, the middle of this book took place, you know like, but so like it's an age, an era that I was, I I didn't get to live in, but I just barely kind of got to touch and see it's a little mysterious.

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So there's mystery there.

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So I feel like I know it and at the same time I don't.

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So I want to go in that world more.

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And then also just these kind of classic there's some classic, archetypical characters in here that are timeless that he brings into the story and watching their stories unfold.

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While you can kind of, like you were saying, you can kind of know where things are headed, you still want to know where it unfolds too, and so, um, I felt like I saw myself in a lot of these characters, or saw like a lot of traits of these characters and people who I know, and so it just felt like the essence of mankind was captured in this, in this book oh yeah, like, and I mean I feel like the nostalgia of learning and listening is encapsulated and like by that I mean like the memories you have of, like your mother, your grandmother, your father, your grandfather, an uncle or an aunt someone's saying something and it, you know, becomes a core memory, you know, I mean, and you still remember, like in the car when they said it and how that was the first time you'd ever heard that, you know, and the wisdom or what, whatever you pulled from it.

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Right, and I think it's just like it's.

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This book called back on so many of those things for me, like, so many, like core moments of learning and growing up in life and like, like you said, these characters are very relatable because we can really see a lot of ourselves or, excuse me, um, our loved ones in them, and sometimes it's sad.

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You know there's a there's, because this whole book is definitely gonna show, like, unfortunate sides of people, um, but without being around the bush any further.

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Uh, let's do like a little introduction here and start getting into the characters and then, uh, we'll get into the key points of themes.

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We're just going over the first 11 chapters um and the themes.

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Throughout, there are 52 of so yeah, there's 52 chapters.

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Yeah, but part one of the book is just with chapters 1 through 11, uh, so we're going to keep things just in that section and so, uh, at least you'll know that we're not going to spoil the whole book for you.

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But now's kind of your last chance to turn away before we get into spoilers for the first part of the book.

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But East of Eden, like I said, written by John Steinbeck back in 1952.

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A lot of people refer to it as his magnum opus.

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You know his best work, the thing he poured everything he had into.

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You know his best work, the thing he poured everything he had into, and the summary on Google and stuff, if you look around, it'll say East of Eden is a story of a venomous rivalry between two generations of brothers, paralleling the biblical story of Cain and Abel.

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However, family and friendship helped to prevent disaster by guiding the family to the realization that mankind may be flawed but redemption can be found.

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And I want to just give an opportunity for us to kind of insert, like our own personal description, summaries pulls away from this.

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And you know if I and this is kind of like the way I would sell it right how I would sell it to someone I want to read it is that this book tells a very believable story.

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Some of it might be nonfiction I think the majority of the novel's fiction but, as best as we could tell from John Steinbeck's writings, some of it may be based on true events, but it really tells, at the core, the story and lesson of learning that you have a choice to either do evil or rise above evil and actively choose, consciously choose, not to commit evil, not to be evil.

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Um, and in doing so is the realization that you can be good and you can be like, not just decent, not passable, but like genuinely you can be genuinely good.

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Um, once you realize it's a choice that you can make and that you can choose to overcome the evil within us and I know that sounds philosophical.

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A lot of the book is A lot of the book is like dialogue of, like talking and philosophizing.

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But I really do believe like that's not news, right, that's something I knew of the Bible, right, like that's like a lesson of the bible.

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But this tells it in a very uh, well drawn out context spanning across generations, where, like it really sticks with home of like essentially just lessons that you can go over through in your mind day in and day out and be like am I gonna choose?

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Am I, am I gonna choose to overcome that?

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Am I gonna choose to conquer the evil to govern the evil, or am I gonna let it govern me?

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Um, so that's how I would sell it to to an audience.

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But what about you?

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yeah, I think that I would just say, you know, it's an epic tale in a way, like the way it's kind of set up as it follows multiple generations, set in old America, where you have just a story of men doing their best to relate to one another and, to your point, find their way to goodness and as they define it, because we see all these different characters.

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You'll see different characters throughout it who don't arrive in a spot where they feel quote unquote good, yeah, they fail to govern the evil.

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You'll see others who kind of think they they did arrive in a good spot, but they really didn't either, and others who did find you know contentment, happiness and you know purpose in those things and so, and some characters are good, but they second guess it forever, like they never realize they're good.

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Right, because I think you know and this is a quote in the book but, like, once you realize you don't need to be perfect, you can truly start to be good.

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And it's like some people get so wrapped up in being perfect that they don't realize that they're good people.

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And being wrapped up in perfectionism can steer you wrong you know what I mean and steer you from and keep you from being good.

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Yeah.

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You know what I mean.

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Um, and even like, and, and also like, even to more tightly put it to somebody I'd say like this is a tale of the struggle of brotherly relationship.

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Oh yeah, and there's all these things that come around it, but at its core, brotherly relationship.

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Oh yeah, and there's all these things that come around it, but at its core, brotherly relationship, because we have some blood brothers as well as let me also say this too I've been selling this book to ladies lately, right.

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So I I want to make sure to like now, like in no way, shape or form political correctness or anything like that.

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Like that's not my intention here, but like this is a book that I don't think is just written for dudes, right.

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Like it's not just about like bros I genuinely do believe.

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Like the allegory in the book is on both sides of the genders, right.

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And like there's just as much here for women to learn and meditate on and can consider as there is for the dudes, right.

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So I just wanted to say it cause you were.

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You know, you said like it's about like brotherly stuff, and it is.

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It does focus on that.

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But I just also want to say, like women, you're not going to be like, oh, I can't relate to these dudes.

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Like you'll listen to him and be like, oh, I can relate to these dudes.

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Right, I agree for sure, for sure.

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I agree, for sure, for sure.

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So, uh, let's, uh, we can get into some of these.

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You know some of the characters we're gonna break down some of the characters.

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Talk through a little bit of them and then go, go through and break down some of the themes and key points we saw throughout the chapters and the, you know, I can't remember is the first person we hear of Sam Hamilton, or is it?

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Or is it Cyrus Trask in the?

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opening.

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That's a good question.

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I think the first chapter begins with just a.

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Well, I mean, I know the first chapter is just glossing over time, right, and establishing the setting.

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Glossing over time and establishing the setting.

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So I think the first character that we're introduced to is technically Adam, and it says Adam was born to Cyrus.

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I think Right, but that's anyways.

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Cyrus is the first dude we spend time with.

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Yeah, yeah, and so Cyrus is what a guy.

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And also the story starts basically right in Civil War time.

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So we've got yeah, like right after it, like right as it's coming to a close, yep, and so the antebellum period.

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Right, that's a thing, but you can't say antebellum anymore, right, that's a thing, but you can't say antebellum anymore.

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What's the thing with that?

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I don't know, I'll look it up.

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I don't know what the deal is with that, but if you know what I mean, that's when it is after the Civil War.

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But Cyrus Trask is a veteran and I'm not going to take away from any veterans out there, but I kind of put his veteran status in quotation marks because of what he goes and does with it afterwards.

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He does end up a leg down, he ends up, yeah man he lost a leg in the war, chopped at the knee, but he was, from what we can tell, basically he was in a battle and he got shot in the leg, lost his leg, and so he was in one inconsequential battle at the end of the Civil War.

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And Cyrus goes on to greatness slowly as he remakes himself.

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Cyrus is basically a nobody coming back from the civil war.

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He's a man without a leg and he starts to kind of fall in love with civil war history and all the battles and everything that happened and I think he just kind of starts to uh believe his own bs, like like he just he realizes, you know, this new young wife of his alice will just believe it like no questioning and no one's questioning it because, good god, you're gonna be the man to question a man missing a leg, right but yeah, and what I'm saying is that I don't even think he set out to like start being like I'm going to I don't think the lies about everything.

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No, at first it was a little bit of exact.

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It says so.

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I remember it's like he's just a little bit of exaggeration.

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Yeah you know.

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So basically he'd say like something along the lines of yeah, when I lost my leg, you know, in that battle.

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And the next time he tells a story it's like when I was charging forward leading the flag in that battle when I lost my leg.

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Next thing, you know, it's when I was in gettysburg, yeah, you know.

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And holding the flag and he actually.

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It does to say that he never actually personally claimed he the way that he would tell stories was this way of.

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He would never directly say that he had done something like with like a stolen valor statement.

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But but it was the way that, it was the context of like expertise the way that he would tell the story about it and have expertise of what happened.

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It was as if he had been there, which you know.

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Credit to him.

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Thinking now about, like with the internet and today, what we could do with.

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If you wanted to become an expert on anything, you could go, take the time, read all the books, read all the stories and like, watch all the videos and you could become an expert on something.

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But at this time, you know he, he was reading all the whatever literature he could and articles, and talking to people and he did become an expert in a very short amount of time with what they had at hand.

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To the point where this was at this time in the world, you know, we had books and stuff, but, like oral tradition, oral history was still like a very heavily like relied upon thing.

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So if somebody oh yeah, I heard from up the road, you know, you know, mr collins said such and such happened, well, he's a man of his word.

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And if he said it happened, it happened.

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You know that kind of thing.

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And so, uh, anyway, cyrus Trask ends up, you know, ultimately becoming a guy who's out in DC and who is advising the president or the vice president, advising on the highest levels.

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Um, and during that time, between when he's a just a guy who lost his leg in the civil war and becoming this huge, influential character in DC, um, he has two sons and he raises them, um, as a very strict military man with strict disciplines.

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Um, was there there anything you know For when we're breaking some of this down, we'll get into.

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Some of you know Cyrus' Story, but not a ton of it.

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Were there any certain characteristics about him that stood out to you?

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I just thought it just reminded me very much of like.

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It's kind of like the the lie got too big.

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You know what I mean.

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And it's that embod kind of like the the lie got too big.

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You know what I mean?

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Um, and it's that embodiment of like.

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I think we all knew this guy.

00:21:30.888 --> 00:21:51.748
We all had a friend whose dad really pressured him to be a good fighter, like be a good brawler, cause his dad, I think, wanted people to think he was a good brawler Right and it was like, maybe like we had that friend to think he was a good brawler Right, and it was like, maybe like we had that friend who either he was a good fighter or something like that he was pretty scrappy Tennis player, whatever.

00:21:51.807 --> 00:21:57.723
Yeah, and it was like it was pushed on him by his father and like that was kind of like.

00:21:57.723 --> 00:22:13.653
It was almost like like my son is this good because I'm this good, and like even though he might've never really been that good, and like I think there's just times where, like you realize, as a kid growing up, you're, like you realize, like dude, some of my friends' parents are like kind of full of shit.

00:22:14.294 --> 00:22:14.794
You know what I mean.

00:22:15.255 --> 00:22:30.663
Like and like as a kid I thought like, oh, mr So-and-so, or know what they're talking about, whatever.

00:22:30.663 --> 00:22:42.143
But then you realize, like, and I think you realize it too because you're friends with those people and they're like, I think I'm a better you know football player in high school than my dad ever was, because, but it was my, it's my dad's dream, it was his dream, so now it was like, you know, vicariously, living through me, and it's clear that, like that's a hundred percent what's going on here with cyrus.

00:22:42.143 --> 00:22:53.871
Like Cyrus is drilling his boys to be the best soldiers that he never got the opportunity to really be Because he was just a nobody injured in the war, sent back home.

00:22:53.871 --> 00:23:01.932
And now he's like, well, I got to walk the walk and my boys better look like the sons of a great military advisor.

00:23:02.252 --> 00:23:13.565
Right, exactly, of a great military advisor, right, exactly, and regardless of if he lost his like leg or not, like he wasn't even interested in military stuff as we could tell until, like, even he wasn't even interested in being a soldier while he was a soldier.

00:23:13.565 --> 00:23:19.530
It was afterwards that he kind of had this looking back on it and, yeah, so he, this guy, he embodies just a charlatan too.

00:23:19.530 --> 00:23:25.167
Also, you know someone who's just, you know, uh, uh, a fraud, yeah, lot of ways and so.

00:23:25.167 --> 00:23:35.093
But something that does come out with him too is, you know, he's not all bad, like he does love his sons in his own ways, you know, and he's a strict, gruff man.

00:23:35.093 --> 00:23:41.506
But he has some encounters with his sons that we'll get into later of, like, the way that he loves his sons in his own way, own way.

00:23:42.487 --> 00:23:50.615
And so he had two sons, one with one lady and one with another lady.

00:23:50.615 --> 00:24:00.300
His first son, adam, he had with Mrs Trask.

00:24:00.300 --> 00:24:07.251
We don't know her name, but Mrs Trask was his first wife when he was a nobody and he was a philandering with a prostitute and got the syphilis.

00:24:07.251 --> 00:24:08.875
Then he gave it to his wife.

00:24:08.875 --> 00:24:12.648
Then his wife found out about she was a super like pious lady.

00:24:12.648 --> 00:24:17.467
And the embarrassment, and the embarrassment, and the embarrassment, she went out and drowned herself.

00:24:17.748 --> 00:24:24.454
Yeah, in a puddle there was not a lot of water in there, like right after her baby being born, like, yeah you know, adam.

00:24:24.756 --> 00:24:37.388
Adam was born, couldn't even remember what his mom looked like before she drowned herself so it's a you know what a, what a way to come into the world for adam as a, uh, you know.

00:24:37.489 --> 00:24:42.342
So his, his, anyways, he, he's a adam, is the.

00:24:42.342 --> 00:24:50.071
You know, when we first see him and as we learn about him, he really he's motherless in so many ways.

00:24:50.071 --> 00:25:02.770
Even though he doesn't really know that he's motherless, he kind of knows that she's not his mom but Alice, yeah, alice isn't his mom, but he, as a kid, he wants her to be his mom.

00:25:02.770 --> 00:25:04.836
As a kid, he wants her to be his mom.

00:25:04.836 --> 00:25:16.134
We just see this person who lacks self-determination, lacks decisiveness, and he really is what his father has made him to be, in the way that he's a little bit of a shell.

00:25:16.134 --> 00:25:20.983
He just follows orders, and part of that being the indoctrination of one.

00:25:21.003 --> 00:25:22.866
It's in his nature to be indoctrination of, you know, one, it's the.

00:25:22.866 --> 00:25:31.545
It's in his nature, um, to be indoctrinated this way and his dad drills him into being a soldier.

00:25:31.545 --> 00:25:46.394
He doesn't really want to be a soldier, but, um, that's what he just naturally will become because he's not gonna, he doesn't have the you know, the drive to stand up and say no, right.

00:25:46.394 --> 00:26:10.076
And then we have the flip side to him, which is his brother, charles, and Charles was his father, cyrus, but the mother, alice Trask, who was a young lady at this time, comparatively to you know, the dad, and she was just kind of a silent, passive lady in the book as I remember her.

00:26:10.800 --> 00:26:20.509
I think it says something along the lines of like what Cyrus demanded most was just an obedient wife who spoke when spoken to and otherwise was seen but not heard.

00:26:20.509 --> 00:26:34.212
And like she just like, as far as we know, alice was like totally fine with that, like there's no idea that alice had any more ambition as a wife, um, or mother, you know.

00:26:34.252 --> 00:27:02.284
Like that's kind of all she wanted, yeah yeah, and she's a pretty, you know minor character in the book herself, but you know the way she plays into the, you know adams and charles's stories, you know more important and and she's uh, um, I think that for alice too, like, uh, it's important to the way that you said before that she was also just someone who just listened to whatever cyrus said about his past.

00:27:02.284 --> 00:27:05.750
She took as whether she believed it to be fact or not.

00:27:05.750 --> 00:27:06.432
I was like that's fact.

00:27:06.432 --> 00:27:10.424
Okay, it's fine, I don't even care if it's true or not, but that's just where I'm at.

00:27:10.424 --> 00:27:12.525
We've met kind of passive people like that.

00:27:12.905 --> 00:27:17.849
It's just kind of you know hang on to every word that someone says I'm like they.

00:27:17.849 --> 00:27:27.565
They not really someone who has a lot of deductive logic, for sure.

00:27:27.565 --> 00:27:35.232
Also, folks, we're assuming that you've read the book if you're listening to this, so just know that in context when we're discussing the characters and yeah, and it's all right if you haven't.

00:27:35.232 --> 00:27:41.025
You just, you just are okay with us spoiling it up for you as well um.

00:27:42.507 --> 00:27:46.332
But so then we have, you know, charles is this flip side to adam.

00:27:46.432 --> 00:28:00.131
He's impulsive, uh, instinctual, violent, um, emotional, you know, type of character as, as a boy, and we start with these, we start with these characters as boys and we see them progress through um, through their lives.

00:28:00.131 --> 00:28:13.766
But, um, their relationship is of Adam and Charles, I think, is a lot like a lot of brothers in a lot of ways, which is why I think the Cain and Abel story, in a lot of ways it relates to a lot of brothers too.

00:28:13.766 --> 00:28:30.053
Even though it's not as extreme, always as killing your brother, it's there's just tension and differences and jockeying for approval of a father and that sort of thing and just feeling different and feeling this sort of thing.

00:28:30.053 --> 00:28:38.068
And so the Adam and Charles relationship is really key to part one of this book and how they interact with each other.

00:28:38.068 --> 00:28:51.073
And then jumping over to the other family that gets followed in this book and then jumping over to the other family that gets followed in this book, we have the patriarch of the family is Sam Hamilton.

00:28:51.073 --> 00:28:53.675
What a guy, sam Hamilton.

00:28:56.440 --> 00:29:00.739
You know, I think that Put some spec on him, dude, sam Yule, yeah, sam Yule Hamilton, that's true.

00:29:01.160 --> 00:29:09.211
His name is Sam Yule and he's kind of mysterious of origin.

00:29:09.211 --> 00:29:14.663
We know he comes from Ireland and we know he's an immigrant, but we don't really know he's a little.

00:29:14.863 --> 00:29:19.160
Melchizedek-y yeah like what drove him to come over.

00:29:19.160 --> 00:29:25.664
We know that it was something in his past that he decided to come to America and seek a different life.

00:29:25.664 --> 00:29:36.087
Um, and he's yeah, like I said, he's an immigrant, he's just this hard worker who can't turn a profit, but he's a dreamer and an inventor and all of his neighbors love him.

00:29:36.087 --> 00:29:45.469
And he um, especially as an immigrant, at first, you know, his neighbors aren't so sure about him, but then, very quickly, they know that, like this guy will do anything for him.

00:29:45.469 --> 00:29:58.214
He'll dig him a well, he'll weld him some special, unique thing for their wagon to work better, whatever, it is and he'll take care of them.

00:29:58.599 --> 00:30:01.128
I don't know if he welded them, but he forged it.

00:30:01.881 --> 00:30:02.182
I don't know.

00:30:02.182 --> 00:30:04.343
If welds were, that's a good point.

00:30:04.343 --> 00:30:04.724
I don't know.

00:30:05.160 --> 00:30:07.728
When was the first welding device invented?

00:30:07.728 --> 00:30:08.329
You know what I mean.

00:30:09.382 --> 00:30:10.767
I don't know Everything had to be.

00:30:10.767 --> 00:30:12.964
Did they just pin it together back then?

00:30:12.964 --> 00:30:13.887
I don't know.

00:30:13.887 --> 00:30:14.951
You're a good point.

00:30:15.762 --> 00:30:20.868
Yeah, they forged it, he forged it, they melted the metal, he made metal hot and put it into shape.

00:30:27.359 --> 00:30:28.101
Yeah, with his manly hands.

00:30:28.101 --> 00:30:36.416
I bet this guy had hands dude, um, and I know that, uh, um, this character is one of maybe one of your most favorites of the book.

00:30:36.436 --> 00:30:37.520
I don't know about you.

00:30:37.520 --> 00:30:50.579
I mean one of my most favorites of like fiction of all time, oh wow you know, like easily, easily up there with like, uh, I mean, you don't know that right, and in part one we're not spending that much time with sam hamilton.

00:30:50.579 --> 00:31:01.310
Um, because he, you know, he really comes into himself once the book has an opportunity for him to dialogue with other characters and but what we kind of get in this part.

00:31:01.431 --> 00:31:20.615
one of him is this man who's come to america, who is trying to make a life for himself and he has this just desert of a ranch and a farm that with his bare hands he is just struggling against the earth to turn it into a living.

00:31:21.779 --> 00:31:29.286
And I think I think someone says something along the lines of like yeah, it was good for everything except for making a life off of.

00:31:29.286 --> 00:31:37.913
Yeah, or making a living off of it was like it's basically useless if you can't make a living off the land, it's basically useless.

00:31:37.952 --> 00:31:38.441
You know what I mean.

00:31:38.441 --> 00:31:38.721
It's true.

00:31:38.721 --> 00:31:40.907
Well, this is true, but you just said a great point.

00:31:40.907 --> 00:31:49.492
I'm going to come back to okay, part four, all right, oh, okay versus making a living and making a life, which is a line that stuck out to me.

00:31:49.613 --> 00:31:50.535
That we're going to talk about.

00:31:51.240 --> 00:32:27.538
Because I think that old Samuel had a life, not much of a living Full life, but anyways, also, if you want to do some pre-reading before reading this, you know, read, you know the opening of the good book and specifically read chapter four of Genesis and the chapter before that which is the fall of man in the garden, and you will read three and four and that's going to also, I think, because also I'd say you have to read that before you read this, because it is really key to this book unfolding for you.

00:32:27.660 --> 00:33:03.857
I mean, everyone knows, knows k and they know the can't able story but everybody does, and that everybody also kind of like it's, it's worth, like re-diving into, because, because steinbeck really does get into the nitty-gritty here you know and even like, and we'll get into like, sam, and we'll do more of the breakdown descriptions of these things, but, um, you know, and so essentially, samuel is almost the embodiment of like, the curse of man in his, in his, in his in his daily life of like well, I'd say in his physical life of just sweating and toil against the thorns and the dirt.

00:33:04.339 --> 00:33:08.603
Like that is his job, to fulfill that just every day.

00:33:08.603 --> 00:33:19.272
Now, you know he he's a man who's kind of full of joy and mystery and all these things and and wisdom too, and so, which is maybe also a depth we can get into around the.

00:33:19.272 --> 00:33:27.854
Is there a gifting from god and the curse of man to go toil in the dirt Like?

00:33:27.854 --> 00:33:30.045
Is there things, good things, that come out of that for us too?

00:33:30.045 --> 00:33:39.269
I don't know, but anyways, the his wife, liza Hamilton, she's just this pinnacle of piety.

00:33:39.489 --> 00:33:56.135
Like and she is the um, you know, this would be the like classic old school religious grandmother who, no matter what you say or what you do, what action you take, she has a response to like what God would say about that.

00:33:56.135 --> 00:34:02.904
And usually what God would say and what she would say are always the exact same thing, like meaning.

00:34:02.904 --> 00:34:08.065
However, she feels about what you're doing exact same thing like meaning, however, she feels about what you're doing.

00:34:08.085 --> 00:34:08.869
Just also that's how god feels about it.

00:34:08.869 --> 00:34:13.182
Like if I don't like the way you're doing this, god does not like the way you're doing this.

00:34:13.182 --> 00:34:18.833
And hard to please lady um, and kind of a smart, funny match for sam hamilton.

00:34:18.833 --> 00:34:20.362
Who is this guy who's really kind of?

00:34:20.362 --> 00:34:27.583
I don't even know if I don't think he necessarily believes in the whole deal as much as she does, he's just kind of like I think he's I I don't think he necessarily believes in the whole deal as much as she does, he's just kind of like I think he's.

00:34:27.664 --> 00:34:43.472
I think he at one point does say like he's, he's an atheist and maybe not even full-blown atheist as much as he's just like there is a question and he doubts uh, you know what the meaning or intention is behind some scripture?

00:34:43.672 --> 00:34:44.074
yeah, he has.

00:34:44.074 --> 00:34:46.349
He has a little bit of a broader view.

00:34:46.349 --> 00:34:52.130
He's opened his mind a little more to you know, thinking a little more through all the stuff.

00:34:55.963 --> 00:34:57.065
And Liza's also too.

00:34:57.065 --> 00:35:07.289
Like you know, she's that type of piety and faith that like isn't as preoccupied with trying to understand it.

00:35:07.289 --> 00:35:10.248
Yeah, it's just it's just like I don't need to understand it.

00:35:10.248 --> 00:35:12.248
It's written in the good word.

00:35:12.248 --> 00:35:19.170
I just need to follow, and if I don't understand it, then it's not for me today.

00:35:19.490 --> 00:35:19.670
Yeah.

00:35:20.684 --> 00:35:23.099
And if God needs me to understand it, I will understand.

00:35:23.099 --> 00:35:26.603
It's just like one of those things of like damn, and Samuel's more of like a.

00:35:26.603 --> 00:35:31.949
I mean, that's why I feel like I really relate to Samuel, Because I'm like I came to faith through those questions.

00:35:31.949 --> 00:35:32.992
Right, you know what I mean.

00:35:34.117 --> 00:35:34.539
For sure.

00:35:34.539 --> 00:35:37.489
Yeah, she's just the written in the stone thing.

00:35:37.489 --> 00:35:42.472
No need for philosophizing or theorizing or wondering.

00:35:42.472 --> 00:35:43.865
There's no wonder.

00:35:47.739 --> 00:35:49.523
Wondering is probably a sin, you know, to Eliza.

00:35:49.523 --> 00:35:51.889
Then there's the tribes of Samuel Hamilton.

00:35:52.070 --> 00:35:58.400
Yes, they pumped out the children, just as.

00:35:58.460 --> 00:36:03.764
God intended, yes, and so later in the book really gets into more of these kids as adults.

00:36:03.764 --> 00:36:04.364
It gets into more of their.

00:36:04.364 --> 00:36:04.545
You know.

00:36:04.545 --> 00:36:06.186
Later in the book really gets into more of these kids as adults.

00:36:06.186 --> 00:36:07.407
It gets into more of their.

00:36:07.407 --> 00:36:11.989
You know particulars, but you know George is his firstborn.

00:36:11.989 --> 00:36:13.771
We don't get a lot on him.

00:36:13.771 --> 00:36:18.793
Will is the entrepreneurial kid.

00:36:18.793 --> 00:36:24.458
Tom is the dreamer, just like his dad, as far as an inventor sort of way.

00:36:24.458 --> 00:36:29.925
Joe is the lazy dreamer who just kind of found his way into not doing anything.

00:36:29.925 --> 00:36:40.623
It's hilarious, um, and joe's the only one who lies the mom lets off the hook because he's the baby boy of the family she's like you know, he can't go out in the fields and work.

00:36:40.664 --> 00:36:43.027
You know he, you know he can't do that, all this stuff.

00:36:43.027 --> 00:36:56.293
But and then, um, the daughters, um, you have Una, um, who we don't get a ton of ton on, but her life and, uh, you know, has an effect on Samuel's life.

00:36:57.101 --> 00:37:12.452
Um, I think he said, I think it says like she was also very like intellectual, like someone that Samuel had a lot of conf confiding in, like the first of his children, that he could really bounce his philosophies and intellectualisms off.

00:37:12.472 --> 00:37:18.951
Yeah, yeah and then lizzie, she, uh, she got married, ran off to the city.

00:37:18.951 --> 00:37:29.119
She's done with this dirty ranch like um, uh, desi was just the kind of the joy of the party, really just kind of like.

00:37:29.119 --> 00:37:29.942
She's like that.

00:37:29.942 --> 00:37:31.364
I picture her.

00:37:31.364 --> 00:37:35.976
I picture her as like the fat ant which.

00:37:35.976 --> 00:37:39.724
So it's like they're just like I had this.

00:37:39.724 --> 00:37:40.967
I had this aunt connie.

00:37:40.967 --> 00:37:48.322
She was a big lady, she's big lady, but she laughed so much, but she laughed and everybody laughed and everybody laughed.

00:37:48.503 --> 00:37:53.143
She was just a joy to be around and her laugh was contagious and like I know what connie looks like right now.

00:37:53.143 --> 00:37:56.632
Yeah, I know right it's just like hey and like she was.

00:37:56.632 --> 00:38:04.673
She was a fun like life of the party type and like just like um the I I think of her somewhere.

00:38:04.673 --> 00:38:21.286
I think of Desi Olive, who is actually based off of John Steinbeck's mother and Olive Hamilton was Steinbeck's mom Olive Steinbeck, yep.

00:38:21.286 --> 00:38:29.282
And also Sam Hamilton was Steinbeckbeck's grandfather, who was that his real grandfather?

00:38:29.463 --> 00:38:30.226
and so there are.

00:38:30.226 --> 00:38:41.833
So there are some characters in here who he you know, either closely based or loosely based off of his family on this hamilton side yeah, olive is a.

00:38:41.972 --> 00:38:47.547
she's a little bit of just a little mini liza, though you know what I mean, like she kind of just becomes Liza Jr.

00:38:47.547 --> 00:38:48.911
She really does.

00:38:50.481 --> 00:39:01.432
And then there is Molly, and I don't even know that I remember much of anything from the stories of Molly she comes visits.

00:39:01.432 --> 00:39:04.507
Yeah, I mean, she's just the youngest daughter who?

00:39:04.507 --> 00:39:06.797
Uh, just that's it.

00:39:06.797 --> 00:39:10.168
She moved to san francisco apartment in san francisco yeah that that's what we.

00:39:10.168 --> 00:39:12.320
You know, that's kind of the thing about her.

00:39:12.380 --> 00:39:38.891
So but uh, the hamiltons had a whole mess of kids and they we get more into their stories as we, as the story goes on, um yeah, and we'll kind of get into more of each of these characters as we break down some of these, you know, key points and themes throughout the book and throughout these, these chapters in part one oh, I think you're missing one there, bud, I think you're missing perhaps the most pivotal one.

00:39:39.820 --> 00:39:40.842
Oh yeah, that one got that.

00:39:40.842 --> 00:39:45.630
One got uh, um on, uh, to fix that in the notes there.

00:39:45.630 --> 00:39:46.472
Okay, now it's over there.

00:39:46.472 --> 00:39:49.985
Yeah, my goodness, I didn't even want to think about her.

00:39:49.985 --> 00:39:52.326
I wish I'd never met the woman.

00:39:52.326 --> 00:40:02.293
Quite frankly, kathy Ames, the really our overarching protagonist.

00:40:02.293 --> 00:40:10.949
Protagonist, Depending on how you swing here but um, no, but uh, just a overarching antagonist of the story.

00:40:10.949 --> 00:40:15.061
Um, and she is um.

00:40:15.362 --> 00:40:22.213
She's this heartless manipulative no empathy, no empathy person, no sympathy.

00:40:22.213 --> 00:40:23.074
But can fake it?

00:40:23.661 --> 00:40:29.246
Yeah, Can certainly fake it, certainly fake it, and she's a true psychopath in like her, the way that she.

00:40:29.768 --> 00:40:35.327
I don't think we've ever decided which one is which because I don't know if she's psycho or socio.

00:40:35.527 --> 00:40:41.829
Yeah, she's messed up, she's probably got she's probably both yeah, she could be both she's the one who has no empathy.

00:40:41.829 --> 00:40:51.409
She's the one who, like um, you know, runs the lawnmower over the cat that's buried in the lawn and just and somehow makes it your fault and doesn't laugh at.

00:40:51.409 --> 00:40:52.423
Like has no like.

00:40:53.681 --> 00:40:55.949
Yeah, there's no maliciousness, joy.

00:40:56.681 --> 00:41:02.518
I mean, she can be malicious, but there's no, like joy in the malice, right?

00:41:02.539 --> 00:41:04.563
yeah, it's just like I don't care.

00:41:04.563 --> 00:41:06.788
Yeah, and can I use this, can I?

00:41:06.847 --> 00:41:07.349
leverage it.

00:41:07.349 --> 00:41:16.190
Yeah, and she is evil and so evil, and we see that even out the gate, as she's a kid and so, um, her story.

00:41:16.190 --> 00:41:38.943
She's very, um, prevalent throughout all the parts of you know the story and, as as she is this um, you know the story and as as she is this, um, yeah, she's the some, some would some have also compared her like to an aspect of Eve in the Bible, meaning you know like and uh, more modern interpretations of Eve.

00:41:39.202 --> 00:42:05.925
You know, like I'm going with some like, some traditional, very like, um, strict interpretations of eve, as like sin is in the world because woman tempted a man and so, like you know, we're not getting into, like the, what we believe about theology of men and women, but that's like she is that part, that, that part of eve in the interesting in this, in the you know, eve in this.

00:42:06.954 --> 00:42:11.422
See, I guess when I first saw Kathy I didn't think of her as like an Eve character.

00:42:11.422 --> 00:42:16.648
I thought of her first initially as just incarnate the snake.

00:42:16.648 --> 00:42:18.862
I just thought she was the snake.

00:42:19.242 --> 00:42:29.005
Yeah, and I'd say she is more that, but like the as like also like a long time ago, people used to be a little bit harder on yeah people used to be like it was eve's fault.

00:42:29.547 --> 00:42:37.150
Right, yeah, like adam has no like uh um no, he's not culpable, even hardly right so like the or you know, or whatever.

00:42:37.192 --> 00:42:47.969
So, but yeah, she is, she is the snake, she is the apple, she is the, the temptation of eve, she is um and she's cane you know, so she is.

00:42:48.449 --> 00:43:00.527
She's embodying all these things um in the characters throughout the book as well yeah, one thing, uh, pat, you know to just to mention here is like it's we don't, we don't know it until later in the book.

00:43:00.527 --> 00:43:19.264
But, like you know, this is this really does read off essentially in these early chapters as, like you know, if you were reading the intro to Numbers or the first chapter of Matthew and you're getting the lineage right of like all these people and then we get into their stories later on.

00:43:19.264 --> 00:43:29.425
But it's good to know the lineage and it's kind of why we want to talk about it here in the character corner too, because, like you wouldn't know, just from like this quick overview of them.

00:43:29.425 --> 00:43:52.222
But, like you know, kathy kind of is like going through time at the same age as Adam and Charles, but all of the Hamilton kiddos were definitely probably younger, younger than either of them, kathy or Adam and Charles, right, and so it's kind of like we'll see as the story goes on.

00:43:52.222 --> 00:43:59.344
But, um, this is just to set up, like the characters and like give you this idea of like a very grand tale, right, you know.

00:43:59.394 --> 00:44:02.565
And that's like the first thing is that I was so confused in the first few chapters.

00:44:02.565 --> 00:44:11.958
I'm sure some people can relate to that.

00:44:11.958 --> 00:44:12.862
I'm just like wait, who are we with now?

00:44:12.862 --> 00:44:13.742
Yeah, what's that guy about?

00:44:13.742 --> 00:44:15.447
I remember, like I didn't.

00:44:15.447 --> 00:44:24.672
I didn't remember, like no, I had to listen to like the chapters about olive and sam hamilton over a couple times before you even get to like a chapter where sam hamilton has dialogue.

00:44:24.672 --> 00:44:25.715
Right, you know what I mean.

00:44:25.715 --> 00:44:28.724
Just to try to keep track of, like okay, what's the context, what's the?

00:44:28.764 --> 00:44:37.599
context For sure, and because there's like five to seven like key or main characters also that aren't even in this.

00:44:38.163 --> 00:44:38.342
Yeah.

00:44:38.454 --> 00:44:45.661
And there's even more characters in that, but like there's, like you know, there's big time characters and bigger time characters yet to come.

00:44:52.855 --> 00:44:54.762
I haven't even come on the scene yet part one, so this list isn't quite exhaustive.

00:44:54.762 --> 00:45:22.059
Right, well, before we hop into essentially just the themes in these early chapters and our thoughts on them, um and dialogue and over that, any other comments or thoughts about the characters at all, like you know anyone like in these early chapter that you just particularly really enjoyed, like the chapters following along with them, or like really engaged you yeah, I think that you know and I'm trying to think in these early chapters because it's funny going back and for how long this book was like.

00:45:22.539 --> 00:45:34.568
This could have been like four books almost in a way, or, like you know, it's like the the character of cyrus was really interesting to me in that I, I was.

00:45:35.429 --> 00:45:54.088
I want to make sure I don't become that guy, in whatever area it is yeah, for real like, um, a fake expert in something and or you know, like, like something I'm not and someone who, like, pushes things upon my children, like that, you know, is my own vision for them.

00:45:54.088 --> 00:46:07.981
And realizing, like, living a whole life pursuing my own thing with not even really knowing my kids, or without even really like them knowing what they want in their life, my kids or without even really like them knowing what they want in their life.

00:46:07.981 --> 00:46:14.922
Like so, like that was like a lesson to me, of like it stood out character to me of like it for cyrus's story, um especially since you know you got two boys.

00:46:15.083 --> 00:46:33.255
I do, I have two sons, and so I was really like probably, you're probably like damn, I hope I'm not forcing my boys to be something they don't want to be for sure and then obviously like then you know, the key thing here was being like the conversations and the story that happens around adam and charles you know, as boys is just you know that was.

00:46:33.617 --> 00:46:34.559
It was a gripping tale.

00:46:34.559 --> 00:46:36.342
You know that that was.

00:46:36.342 --> 00:46:53.483
That was a um, something I really latched on to, as well as having two sons being like there's parts of this like I do not want that for my sons and there's like encounters these boys are having that I know my sons will have in a similar form or fashion that I hope to handle well.

00:46:53.804 --> 00:46:59.967
Do you think you can see right now in your boys already, which one will be protecting the other, regardless of the age?

00:47:00.007 --> 00:47:00.349
difference.

00:47:00.349 --> 00:47:10.844
This is the I was trying to not like do too much um um projecting of these characters on my sense, but at the same time I can see it.

00:47:13.297 --> 00:47:14.342
My boys are so different.

00:47:14.342 --> 00:47:24.786
One is more serious and emotional and the other one is more funny and violent.

00:47:24.786 --> 00:47:36.748
He laughs everything off and he'll just whack, he'll just get in a fight real fast, and the other one's like kind of more, a little more thoughtful and serious and emotional.

00:47:36.748 --> 00:47:52.715
It's just like I just these things were like, I was like, yeah, and that's where, like I don't know how it will all play out, but it's like you do just project a little bit Sure, like little traits, little things, whatever you know, and I wonder about how this will be and I hope this.

00:47:52.715 --> 00:47:56.766
You know, you have to be careful to not be stressed out about things too.

00:47:56.766 --> 00:48:10.438
But I'm also like what are the things I'm looking out for some of these things in my sons, to steer them away from being like some of these kids have turned out right no kidding, yeah, I think too.

00:48:10.518 --> 00:48:18.275
like, if I'm being honest, the character I I enjoyed following the most was kathy.

00:48:18.275 --> 00:48:36.300
Oh yeah, you know, kathy's introduced to us as a child and like the opening line about Kathy is, you know, it just says like she was born not human, like something is missing that most that all other humans have.

00:48:36.300 --> 00:48:46.219
It's absent in Kathy and it's just like, rather than being like here she is, as a fully developed, manipulative, capable, powerful, cunning woman.

00:48:46.219 --> 00:48:48.175

Dog-Eared Dialogues - East of Eden Part 1

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